I am very hesitant about associating any particular language with Islam; Bangladesh may not have had to go through a bloody war of independence from Pakistan if they hadn't tried to impose the supposedly "Islamic" language of Urdu upon us in 1952. On that grounds I would agree with you that a variety of languages would certainly have been better.

Have you written to them to suggest this? I'm curious as to how they respond.

Salam Zeeshan,

>>I am very hesitant about associating any particular language with Islam;

Me, too. I used Urdu as an example…and because it made for a short title. But, yeah, why not Banglaon the bus ads, too.

- A Salafi in worship, a Sufi in society, a Secularist in government.

I spoke to a young Muslim in Pakistan once, who SWORE UP AND DOWN that the Qur’an was written in Urdu. I questioned him, asking him what language the following might be: “Bismillah ir-Rahman ir-Rahim” and he said YES INDEED this is Urdu.

The Qur’an itself promotes Islam as an Arabic thing. If we look at some of what followed, then we are not surprised that people identify Islam with Arabic. If there are a majority of Muslims in the world who do not speak Arabic, then it is because of something lacking in them or their ancestors, that an effort was not made to learn Arabic, for certainly it would seem to be the intention of Muhammed that they could speak and understand, and their knowledge of Arabic would be pleasing to Allah.

In the early 1970s, I met a Greek man who married a Russian girl, and came to the USA with their two toddlers. I met my friend recently, and asked him if his children, now in their 30’s, still speak Greek and Russian to their parents. His face grew stern, and he answered, “They most certainly do, for they know that we expect nothing less of them than to address us in our native languages.”

“This day I have perfected your religion for you, completed My favor upon you, and have chosen for you Islam as your religion” (5:3)

Indeed we have sent it down as an Arabic Qur’an, in order that you may understand (Surah Yusuf, Aayah 2)

And thus we have inspired to you an Arabic Qur’an so that you may warn the mother of towns and all around it (Surah ash-Shura, 7)

http://www.lutonmuslims.co.uk/arabic.htm

And truly this (the Qur’aan) is a revelation from the Lord of the ‘Alamin (mankind, jinns and all that exists), which the trustworthy Ruh (Jibreel) has brought down upon your heart (O Muhammad) that you may be (one) of the warners, in the plain Arabic language” (Surah ash-Shura: 192-195)

http://www.khutbah.com/print.php?type=5&id=567&language=8

http://sisters.islamway.com/modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=333

I have vowed to Allah long ago not to speak except in the language of the Qur’aan and Sunnah (i.e. Arabic) and I do that only for Allah’s sake. If my wife and children desire to enjoy speaking with me, they should learn the language of the Qur’aan and of the Prophet (Peace be upon him) (i.e. Arabic) and I am ready to teach them the Qur’aanic language whenever they desire that”[2]

OmarG:
1-I think Zeeshan has a point: call!
2-the site Sitaram posted is a good read. part of which says: ‘...so when we defend it we are not proceeding on a path of nationalism or racism or culturalism, but in fact we are defending the language of our religion (way of life) and it is the cloak of our Islamic Civilization.’ The site tries to dispel much misunderstanding in order to avoid ghettoization of Arabic as an ethnic tool.

Here is the site in Sitaram post:

http://sisters.islamway.com/modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=333

I shall endeavor to create a clickable link for the

sisters.islamway.com page

http://sisters.islamway.com/modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=333

I am at work now, but I am planing to write a post at

http://www.myspace.com/literarydiscussions

entitled "A Chosen People, A Chosen Tongue" 

which will explore the notion of class/caste vs. classless equality

and a sacred language vs. a pentecostal/panglottal message to all

as these four extremes have manifested in different epochs within 

different cultures and religions.

I shall try to discuss the exclusiveness of sanskrit and hebrew among

priestly castes and tribes, vs the democratic appeal of Paul and the Book

of Acts, as well as the evolution of Buddhism and Sikkhism, and the

Roman Catholic practice of philetism, giving way in Vatican II to a

multicultural inclusive tapestry.

I think the point of having the script on the bus in Arabic, to soften the association of the language and the script with terrorism, is because almost all the 9/11 hijackers spoke Arabic as their mother tongue.

Ya Haqq!

Sitaram,

>>and their knowledge of Arabic would be pleasing to Allah.

Actually, I wrote a paper last fall showing that this is NOt the case by analyzing the verses which say the Quran is an “Arabic discourse” along with the tafsir (interpretations) by classical scholars. God, being above his creation, has no need for any specific human language. Also, if Arabic is the super language of revelation, then why did God not use it from the very beginning instead of waiting until the very end to use it??

- A Salafi in worship, a Sufi in society, a Secularist in government.

Oh, and this guy was an asshole:

>>If my wife and children desire to enjoy speaking with me, they should learn the language of the Qur’aan and of the Prophet

I heard it was an Uzbek scholar, but no actual documentation exists for this apocryphal story, so it seems more a symbolic myth of Arabic supremacy rather than a spiritual principle of Islam…

- A Salafi in worship, a Sufi in society, a Secularist in government.

Actually, I wrote a paper last fall showing that this is NOt the case by analyzing the verses which say the Quran is an “Arabic discourse” along with the tafsir (interpretations) by classical scholars. OmarG

Omar, you are still a student; students are often inquisitive and skeptical. I am still hopeful that you will get it ‘sometime’.

Please explain; since we’re nominally here to educate and exchange views, please do.

Of course, being a student doesn’t mean I misread (in the original Arabic) when Baydawi and Razi both went to great pains to explain that the “quran-an arabiyy-an” verses do not mean a preference by God for a particular human langauage. Its no wonder Muhammad Asad used Razi (different from the 9th century medical scholar) as a primary source for his translation and explanations…he’s quite rational and modern.

- A Salafi in worship, a Sufi in society, a Secularist in government.

Salam all

I think we should be appreciative of the fact that a positive move has been made, for a change. The only script that people associate with terrorism is the Arabic one. People who can’t read it will not know the difference between Arabic, Urdu and Persian; to them it will ALL be Arabic. So plain Arabic is fine because it serves the purpose.

I really don’t see the point of putting the same adverts up in the Bengali script, which is more likely to be associated with hinduism than anything else due to its ressemblance to the devanagri-type script used in Sanskrit and Hindi, and the ‘terrorism’ point would be missed by onlookers.

Moreover, the only COMMON language of ALL Muslims is ARABIC.

So rather than clamour for a multitude of different scripts to be used in adverts, let’s be reasonable and thankful for the use of the Arabic one. The idea is good and it serves the purpose. So it should be encouraged.

Point taken, wellwisher. But, I want to challenge this:

>>Moreover, the only COMMON language of ALL Muslims is ARABIC.

Really? what about a Senegalese Muslim and French convert who only have French to converse with each other or who read Tariq Ramadan in French? The vast majority of Muslims have no functional skills in Arabic, so it cannot be THE Muslim language. I think more Muslims speak English as either a native language (maybe 10 million) and especially as a second language (couple humdred million, mostly in Asia) than all speakers of Arabic combined. So what, then is THE Muslim language in common? Arabic? Just because its the language of the Quran? Even though non-Arab Muslims hardly ever use it to communicate with other Muslims? Then what good is Arabic if it serves no such community purpose? The problem is that it is NOT an ethnically neutral language. Latin was a dead language in the middle ages so medieval states and scholars could adopt it as the lingua franca of catholicism, diplomacy and scholarship without unduly favoring native speakers becuase Latin had none! But, adopting Arabic unduly favors only the 20% or so of Muslims who are native speakers because most people do not have the time or resources to learn it, nor is there any tangible benefit. Thus, it looks little more than disguised Arab nationalism wearing a holy turban.

Even in the age of the Muslim empires before colonialism, Persian was the status language and not Arabic; Arabic was used mostly by scholars (who often were ethnic Berbers or Persians), but not for much else. Ibn Batutah found that learning Persian was much to his benefit and that knowing Arabic was basically useless once he got past Sham.

Now, does the Quran say anything about what the language of Muslims should be? No. Can anyone show me where it does? I bet not.

- A Salafi in worship, a Sufi in society, a Secularist in government.

Imagine an Orthodox Jew who does not understand Hebrew. One can imagine such a thing, just as one might imagine unicorns, or the Loch Ness monster.

The Jews recognize 613 "mitzvahs" in their "Torah" (the first five books of the Old Testament: Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers, Deuteronomy). Mitzvahs are either positive commandments (i.e. thou SHALT do this), or negative commandments (i.e. thou SHALT NOT do that). The VERY LAST of those 613 commands is "to make a copy of the Torah" (in Hebrew, obviously.) So, where is our Orthodox Jew who has no knowledge of Hebrew. Well, one might become a Reform Jew, and join a liberal, progressive synagogue where, perhaps a woman is rabbi, and perhaps even that woman is married to another woman. Hey, nothing wrong with that! Still, I bet those lesbian rabbis learn quite a bit of Hebrew, in self-defense.

Frequently, when one tries to argue some point regarding the Qur'an, based upon one's reading of Pickthall, or some other translator, one is stopped dead in their tracks by that Muslim who objects that THE QUR'AN cannot be translated out of Arabic and be properly understood. Even the translators, such as Pickthall, reinforce the notion of "untranslatability" by stressing that their translation is "The MEANING of the Glorious Koran", which is something very different from the Qur'an itself. And yet, curiously, there is a verse in the Qur'an which says that it has been written in Arabic "so that ye may plainly understand."

Now, one might argue that, since the vast majority of Muslims in the world are deficient in Arabic, that therefore, a reading knowledge of Arabic is not a pre-requisite for being Muslim. And certainly, such a position is historically valid, for, as Islam spread through Persia, and various countries, a convert was only required to say, "There is no God but Allah and Muhammad is His prophet" and perhaps be circumcised, and one was considered to have taken shahada.

But, HERE is a fascinating account of Shahada in Wikipedia.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shahadah

May I call your attention to an ancient GREEK version of Shahada, which obviously proves that the Arabic language was not always used during the process of conversion to Islam.

Ouk estin theos ei mē ho theos monos; Maamet apostolos theou.

Now, one might imagine an Arabian Helen Keller who could learns Braille and reads a Braille Arabic version of the Qur'an. Or even better, let our imaginary Helen Keller learn only sign language, and apprehend the Qur'an only in sign. It would seem that the sincere desire to become Muslim is sufficient to declare someone Muslim, apart from any present or future comprehension on that person's part of the language or details of the Qur'an and Islam. And yet, in the light of those arguments which claim that the Qur'an is untranslatable, it would seem that one is forever at a distance from the true message of the Qur'an until one masters the language. The great efforts of all the students each year who memorize and recite the Qur'an is certainly a testimony to the importance of learning the Qur'an in Arabic. I wonder if anyone ever chooses to memorize an English translation of the Qur'an. Anyway, these are interesting questions to ponder, and certainly an old kafir like me has no solution for these questions.

IF it is the case that a knowledge of Arabic is not essential in order to be Muslim, then it is curious how many Muslims, and MOST ESPECIALLY CONVERTS, feel compelled to regularly pepper and season their speech with a host of Arabic words, salaams, inshallas, etc. which are intelligible only to other Muslims, and those who bother to study something about Islam.

I get your point. But I believe the adverts were primarily addressed to NON-MUSLIMS...so as to remove their baseless fears of everything Islamic. If the point of the adverts was to address others in their own language, well then dozens of languages would have to be used. That is not the aim.

So my point is: It is IMMATERIAL which language is used, as long as it is in the ARABIC script, which any non-Muslim can readily recognise, even if they can’t read it.

And if they have chosen Arabic itself for the adverts, then that will definitely serve the purpose.

It is not Arabic-speakers who are being targetted by the adverts. It is non-Muslims.

As for the other, rather unrelated, point, let me stress that I was obviously not implying that all Muslims can SPEAK Arabic. But as religious language, ALL Muslims have Arabic. That is the religious language of Islam. All Muslims have to use it when they recite the Qur’an or when they pray – which is at least 5 times a day. So I meant it only in that sense. But that has no bearing on the adverts, which, remember, are really addressed NOT to Muslims but to NON-MUSLIMS.

So if Arabic is used, and non-Muslims recognise it as ‘something Islamic’ then the purpose will have been served.

I hope I have made my point clear this time!

‘Thus, it looks little more than disguised Arab nationalism wearing a holy turban.’ Omarg

The antagonism you have toward Arabic and Arabs is astounding. Honor your mother in law, bud. The statement above would have been ‘understandable’ coming from an Olmert, rather than from an Omar. {Chill! }

Omar, don’t you think you have better understanding of ‘Islamic construct’ now than you did when your knowledge of Arabic was not as vast as it is today? Knowing more of and about a language, such as Arabic,
improves one’s appreciation of the cognitive as well as the emotive elements imbedded into those construct.

I do not have to wait for your answer, I don’t think you are different from students of other languages whose understanding of concepts is enhanced by the language they study. Thus the value of associating a better understanding of Islam with studying and learning Arabic.

Briefly, sitaram: learning Arabic for the sake of Quranic scholarship is quite legitimate and necessary. However, I completely object to any notion that being a “real” or “full” Muslim requires adoption of a particular ethnic group’s language. In Islam, there is no such thing as a holy language nor do we raise human languages as sacred as the Jews might do to Hebrew or Catholics do to Latin or Hindus do to Sanskrit. If we beleive otherwise, then we reduce Islam to nothing more than a tool for Arabization, in which case we may as well call a horse a horse…

- A Salafi in worship, a Sufi in society, a Secularist in government.

Salam center,

>>Thus the value of associating a better understanding of Islam with studying and learning Arabic.

See above. you are right, I do have a better appreciation and understanding of the Quran in its original language. However, what I object to is not that (remember, I affirmed that ritual prayer should be in Arabic, but I won’t call it “salat” while speaking English!). I believe there is a difference between learning Arabic as a scholarly task verses sacralizing a language or elevating it to the status of “God’s language”. Al-Thawri related that “the language of the people of paradise is Arabic and the language of the Ressurection will be Syriac.” We also have another very early Salaf saying that all revelation was in Arabic even to non-Arab prophets, and it was translated for them to deliver to thier people! Such ideas smack of linguistic nationalism. Also, I think this notion of Arabic as THE Muslim / Islamic language contributes to this: how many Arabs do you know who love to learn Malay, Hausa, Swahili, Persian, Urdu, Tatar, etc versus them saying all Muslims should learn Arabic?? I didn’t think so. And this attitude right there contributes to ethnic discord because it sure looks like they want me to pump them up by absorbing THIER culture as expressed in THIER language. Also, I see a number of communities where they offer prayer leadership or community leadership to people jsut because they are Arab; indeed, I remember one Desi mosque where an Arab insisted on leading because only he knew how to speak Arabic! Indeed, a good reason?!

Rememer this: although I actually am quite fond of Arabic as a language in itself, I will not allow Muslims to feel inferior or bow down to a particular ethnicity; we are all equal and I will not accept a cultural attitude which places one ethnicity first just because they claim to speak the language of Paradise. Its wrong and harmful to inter-ethnic Muslim relations.

Anyway, I’ll let Laury review the paper and after any appropriate changes / summarization, I’ll post it for all to see my detailed reasoning.

- A Salafi in worship, a Sufi in society, a Secularist in government.

Wellwisher,

>>So my point is: It is IMMATERIAL which language is used, as long as it is in the ARABIC script, which any non-Muslim can readily recognise, even if they can’t read it.

Well, that is my point, too! The language is immaterial, so why not mix it all up? The organizers chose Arabic for a reason, and I have my suspiciions what that reason is, but as you said, the important thing is that the advertisements will hopefully work.

- A Salafi in worship, a Sufi in society, a Secularist in government.

Omar,

>The language is immaterial, so why not mix it all up?<

There is no need to! Do you propose that PLEASE DO NOT LITTER be written in Arabic…then in Urdu , Persian, Pushto and others? All of which use the Arabic alphabet? So basically 5 or six times the same thing?

In that case the campaign would be addressing those people. Like I said, I don’t think Muslims are the addressees here. The NON-MUSLIMS are the addressees.

Not to mention that the non-Muslims (few of whom will even be able to tell the difference between the different languages) might think: “Wow, that Arabic language must be pretty poor on vocabulary…What takes one line in English, takes up 6 in Arabic…”

LOL!

But just to please you…perhaps they could put up several adverts around town, one in Arabic, one in Urdu, one in Persian…etc…does that suit you better ? ;-)

Omar,

>The language is immaterial, so why not mix it all up?<

There is no need to! Do you propose that PLEASE DO NOT LITTER be written in Arabic…then in Urdu , Persian, Pushto and others? All of which use the Arabic alphabet? So basically 5 or six times the same thing?

In that case the campaign would be addressing those people. Like I said, I don’t think Muslims are the addressees here. The NON-MUSLIMS are the addressees.

Not to mention that the non-Muslims (few of whom will even be able to tell the difference between the different languages) might think: “Wow, that Arabic language must be pretty poor on vocabulary…What takes one line in English, takes up 6 in Arabic…”

LOL!

But just to please you…perhaps they could put up several adverts around town, one in Arabic, one in Urdu, one in Persian…etc…does that suit you better ? ;-)

Omar,

You wrote: The language is immaterial, so why not mix it all up?

There is no need to! Do you propose that PLEASE DO NOT LITTER be written in Arabic…then in Urdu , Persian, Pushto and others? All of which use the Arabic alphabet? So basically 5 or six times the same thing?

In that case the campaign would be addressing those people. Like I said, I don’t think Muslims are the addressees here. The NON-MUSLIMS are the addressees.

Not to mention that the non-Muslims (few of whom will even be able to tell the difference between the different languages) might think: “Wow, that Arabic language must be pretty poor on vocabulary…What takes one line in English, takes up 6 in Arabic…”

LOL!

But just to please you…perhaps they could put up several adverts around town, one in Arabic, one in Urdu, one in Persian…etc…does that suit you better ?

OmarG:

I say: Thus the value of associating a better understanding of Islam with studying and learning Arabic.

You say: Rememer this: ..., I will not allow Muslims to feel inferior or bow down to a particular ethnicity; we are all equal and I will not accept a cultural attitude which places one ethnicity first just because …

OmarG: you are fighting the ghost of an incident where being an Arab/or Arabic speaker was used to minimize your Islamic credentials to lead a salat. This is not what I am asking you to tolerate; leading salat takes more than speaking the language.

The sad thing I have noticed about your attitude toward Arabs/Arabic is that you are waging an ideological struggle against Arabs/Arabic in the hope that such vehement antagonism toward the language as well as toward Arabs as an ethnic group would restore to you a sense of cognitive as well as a moral/ethical equilibrium. I have no problem with that. I continue to hope that in your zeal to defend your ego you do not forego the benefit of (learning/speaking ) Arabic to the understanding of Islam.

Actually center, it was not I who was supposed to lead…I was only 17 at the time. This is not a single incident or its ghost. It is a repeating pattern which replicates across individuals, time and space which makes it a cultural pattern, not just the ego of a particular person I’ve encountered in the past. I see it, many others see it. If you do not or choose not to, so be it.

- A Salafi in worship, a Sufi in society, a Secularist in government.