Its a mixed bag you know? What is any of this ethnicity anyway?

Look my mom is Southern Protestant, she married a New York Jew. People always take on the culture of the folks they marry. My dad picked up Southern Christian habits, she Jewish. We had Christmas but with a Jewish Star on the top of the tree. We were instructed only to marry Jews. She protected us by saying “kinahara” to ward off the evil eye. We ate green beens boiled in salt pork at home one day and at the Kosher restaurant the next day. She taught me Jesus was a great teacher and that we are all the children of God. Later when I told her that Christians believe that Jesus is the Son i.e. God, she was really freaked out. “How could a man be God?!” She’d had us baptized, forced us to go to church when we were little, and had no memory of this small point of theology. I had no memory of church other than my mother trying to keep me quiet by feeding me Certs that had bits of tissue and thread stuck to them from the bottom of her purse. My memories are of Southern cooking, Southern talk and family stories about an Aunt who just knew that the barn back home was on fire even though they couldn’t see it from town and made everyone go back right away and sure enough there was the dog barking in the road and the barn on fire, Jewish ethics and theology, a little yiddish, and a lot of Jewish humor. Then I converted to Islam out of books, not really from people.

Along with my Islam, I’ve taken what Islamic culture feels comfortable to me. In the end, I think my Islamic culture looks a lot like a Pottery Barn catalog except I got my stuff cheap in Morocco.

I make the food I’ve learned how to cook from women who’ve taught me. So I can make Fried Chicken, Bisquits, insanely good gravy, Cous Cous (not out of the box), Afhani spinach and lamb stew, Fesenjun, Persian Rice, and the most excellent skirt streak tacos.

People do convert to ethnicity. But when do people do anything without adopting some ethnicity other than their own? You live in an Arab part of NYC, you start eating Arab food and pick up Arab habits. I grew up in LA, I feel extremely comfortable in Latino environments. I used to know Spanish very, very well. My spanish is gone now, but not my love of a taqueria (of which there are none that I am aware of nearby me).

I know what you mean, though, it is when people forget it is an ethnic expression of Islam rather than “Islam” itself. That is exhausting.

It becomes especially problematic when people practice a culture that is vastly out of sync with the environment/country they currently live in. OmarG

wouldn’t you say the Amish are doing OK living their lives in a ‘non-conventional(non-American) way? Could it be that people ‘looking into’ the Amish culture have the problem more than the Amish themselves? Diversity has a great deal to do with why ‘immigrants love the US but keep on criticizing it or rebelling against it in forms of dress, food etc.

‘,,vastly out of sync…’ is hard to define. It is ‘vastly’ ambiguous’.

good point center

>>wouldn't you say the Amish are doing OK living their lives in a 'non-conventional(non-American) way?

No, actually I don't think they are doing OK; they are hemorraging members each day as the young decide to check out and join the "Britisher world". But, I'm willing to let them to themselves because they don't try to define all of Christianity as being the sum of thier ethnic self-interests and aspirations to the exlusion of others. And, they certainly do not try to get everyone else on board and then attempt to ostracize those who dissent.

Laury, you made a point about hybridizing your parents Southern and Jewish personal cultures; that's what I love about marriages such as that. Yet, the example is not quite analogous: both were native cultures with intimate experience with the national culture of the US. Immigrants can always do well when they do the same, that is, understand at the least and conform as the best to the national culture even as they maintain thier own personal cultures. Rebelling against the very culture and country which gives them relief always has and always will be construed as treasonous and ungrateful. That's how I see it, anyway.

- A Salafi in worship, a Sufi in society, a Secularist in government.

great point center. great point.

I think the hybrid culture is an interesting point. Your objection seems to be to ‘‘native’‘ cultures but if ethnic-American identity is
hybrid then what is the meaning of ‘‘native’‘ anyway? What if
somebody says that the American is by definition Christian as
Huntington seems to imply? He might look at Jewish culture as an
intrusion. Besides, one could argue that Arab culture is more native and rooted than we like to admit. Marc Shell has an anthology on Multi-lingual literature that includes a slave narrative written in Arabic. Arab immigrants started arriving in this country during the
1860’s… One of the first arabic novels written by a woman called
Afifah Karam was written in the United States. What makes that
less native or indigenous than the excellent example cited by
Laury… ?

I think what you’re talking about also has something to do with time, Omar. (That’s my husband’s name! Would you believe I didn’t notice until just now? I think of you as ‘Omarg’.) I think new converts don’t want to get stuck without any community whatsoever—they’ve struck off their old one, and haven’t quite entered their new one, and it hasn’t even occurred to them that the two can be reconciled—so they go full monty and adopt Islam not only as a religion, but as a civilization. You and I and Laury are all at least a few years (yes? forgive me if i’m being presumptuous) into Islam, so maybe we’re more comfortable crafting individual identities within it than someone who has just converted.

I think something parallel is going on here. If a convert feels that
a certain culture is exercising its hegemony and trying to delineate
boundaries determining what figures as Muslim or not, then an
‘‘immigrant’‘ or new comer is also asked pressured to leave cultural heritage behind. They too are trying to reconcile those elements and
like the convert may feel bewildered at the pressure to renounce
their past….. This discussion also needs to incorporate a larger
question; what does it mean to be American. Is there only one way
to be American? One shouldn’t overlook the fact that being an
American is itself a contested terrain. all too often being critical
of foreign policy is viewed as un-American. Roy Arundhati speaks to
this issue in one of her speeches with characteristic eloquence. She
loves so much about this country, its vast geography, many of its
writers but is also a harsh critic of its policies. can the mind not hold
critique, fondness and affinity at the same time? I also think of one of my favorite American writers. How steeped he is in the idea of the American republic and what a critic he is of empire.

Ginan, I think those early Lebanese and Syrian immigrants' descendants are fully assimilated now, that is, they are oriented towards where they live and act and speak like everyone else in thier town and not perceived as being foriegn and niether are they oriented towards the old world. They make my point perfectly. Let everyone come as they may, but let them respect this land and its people first if they are to live among us.

I make a distinction between people who direct thier efforts to fixing the "right here" versus people who are obsessed with fixing "over there" and simply use our land, our education, our money to implement political Islamism which is anti-thetical to the very nation whose kindness they exploit.

For me, there is no "over there" and there is no "over there" for the 40% of Muslims in the US who are Black- and White Americans. Its amazing how blithely people want to ignore that, which I think only prooves how negligent and dismissive many of the immigrants are towards us. I mean, we only have a "right here" and if the mosques cede the "over here" and screw it up in thier pursuit of Islamism abroad, it us who were born here with nowhere to go who will be royally F-ed.

- A Salafi in worship, a Sufi in society, a Secularist in government.

Ginan,

>>then an “immigrant” or new comer is also asked pressured to leave cultural heritage behind.

That’s interesting. But, I also think it is too morally relativistic. There has to be a common cultural basis if there is to be social stability. We have a mutitude of sub-cultures, underground cultures, elite and ghetto cultures, you name it. But, through schooling, the workplace and simple interaction which require skills in English bind us together so at least we can understand and come together on some level when need be. I get the impression that unlike other immigrant groups, many of the Islamist type simply don’t want to participate and then pass that standoff-ishness as Islam. Such misinterpretations must not become the common denominator among different Muslim ethnicities living in my country.

- A Salafi in worship, a Sufi in society, a Secularist in government.

Omar,

Please explain to me how that is morally relativistic. I am not
sure I understand what you mean by that in this contex —

You know what I think OMar, on one level this is about negotiating multiple levels of belonging. There are always going to be small
communities one goes back to for holidays, for major events in
one’s life, where one shares things in common with people who share common interests and then other communities one participates in…... It it because we are all so hybrid, so syncretic that no one community can fulfill all our needs and perhaps that is why
we are all grappling with this discomfort, the sense that no matter
where we are it is diffuclt feeling completely at home anywhere…

You know what else? It may be that a lot of the Muslim immigrants are newcomers, are bewildered, confused, afraid to go out and mingle, not culturally confident yet and that it will take them time
like the older waves of immigrants who have had time to get more
comfortable. This is complicated stuff.

By the way it’s my country too. Many of them are becoming citizens.they feel it is their country too. Perhaps how we
accomodate are not can be an important factor in how
well they interact.

“they are oriented towards”

Hey…‘orient’. Orient. “To align or position with respect to a point or system of reference.”

Wow. You just titled a book for me, totally by accident.

>>It may be that a lot of the Muslim immigrants are newcomers, are bewildered, confused, afraid to go out and mingle, not culturally confident yet

I understand that; it becomes a problem when they attempt to define Islam as an excuse for it. Its like, people can't just come out and say they are lonely here or feel unadjusted. Instead, they say that Islam makes them do it. 'Islam the excuse' is used to justify all kinds of heinous and not so heinous practices here and I for one, won't tolerate that. I don't need it; we have a chance as converts and 2nd and even 3rd/4th generation to start from the beginning almost, and it really annoys me how people bring the parts of thier cultures which suck and then try to foist it on the rest of us as Islam. I mean, why can't we encourage people towards the kinds of generosity of Hatim Tayy instead of glorifying thier territorial and communal conflicts "over there"?

I am being asked to care about others who seem to go out of thier ways to not care about converts, at least those of us who don't/won't convert to thier ethnicity. I just don't see how one-way care is a payoff for me.

Willow, cool. Do I get a cut of the royalties ;-)

- A Salafi in worship, a Sufi in society, a Secularist in government.

‘...why can’t we encourage people towards the kinds of generosity of Hatim Tayy instead of glorifying thier territorial and communal conflicts “over there”?’ OmarG

Omarg: these days whatever is ‘over there’ turns out to be ‘here’ and whatever is ‘here’ turns out to be ‘over there’.

how would you use Hatim generosity to deal with someone who has relatives in the villages israel obliterated. (thanks god, i aint one!)

Omar:

one of the realities of our world is massive migration and
the emergence of transnational forces. Globalization means
that everything that happens there is linked to what happens
here. Cultures are not just shaped by their past, their traditions
but also by interacting with and reacting to other cultures.

I think part of the problem here Omar is that two different realms
are being conflated; the religious and the political. You don’t
want to hear about conflicts in the mosque in your capacity as
a Muslim. For you that is a place of worship and so forth.

But for many there is also a civic identity. One that is arguably
intrinsic to certain ways of being American. If we de-politicize
religion- a good move in my view- then should we also depoliticize
citizens and disengage them from the world?

But whether we care to acknowledge it or not- regardless of
one’s political views- we are implicated in that world. After all,
it was our government that presided over and hailed the Cedar
revolution over there in Lebanon. we are trying- again whether
we care to acknowledge that this is happening or not- engaged
in trying to make a ‘‘new middle east’‘ as Condi’s birth pang
comment demonstrated. Incidentally, it is not just immigrants
with cultures that suck who are profoundly engaged with what
is going on over there. About 60% of Americans, for instance,
want us out of Iraq. The Zogby poll taken yesterday indicated that
a not so small percentage of Americans wanted to see a more
even handed approach to the Israeli/Lebanese conflict. These are
matters that many in the Jewish American community are grappling
with. These are hardly narrow issues that only impact certain
communities. The prerogative of religious quietism shouldn’t
impinge on other people’s right to take an active role in participatory democracy.

do you think any culture is free of aspects that sucks and aspects
that are great and aspects that are just- well somewhere in the
middle and tolerable?

I find this all very interesting. Yesterday, I say this white woman dressed in a South Asian shalwar kameez at the mosque, I'm sorry, but I think white Muslims look weird in South Asian "Islamic" clothing. Even the guys who come to the mosque always dressed in a thobe with their "Arabicized" English, it just makes me laugh. Here I am, clean shaven to the mosque dressed in Urban Outfitter clothing and told by a Saudi worshipper that, "I thought you were Lebanese!" and I look more Western these white blokes. To me, white people converting to Islam and white Jews especially make me think of that famous "Orientalist" from Azerbaijian who immigrated to England and created this fantasy world of being a prince. White reverts for some reason bother me more so than non-whites like African American women donning black polyester niqabs or Latino men dressed in leather khuffs and a white thobe to the mosque. I'm part Persian, hence the "Arab" appearance and well being Persian, my Islam is affected by current events in Afghanistan and Iran post 1979, with the post-Revolutionary hostilities to the burqa, niqab, and purdah. Hostilities to gender apartheid and the "Gulf Arabization" and Salafi missionary activities overseas that are leading to cultural homogeneization and the cultural genocide of traditional dance and music forms around the Muslim world, especially in places like Java where much of the Brahmanic-Buddhist culture was preserved in the villages despite conversion to Islam. I saw this white revert yesterday, he needed some fashion tips, his clothing was terribly and unshapely, but at least he was dressed in Dockers and tie with a tie clip and short sleeved collored shirt. I could see hanging up Islamic calligraphy in your living room, but having a room looking like some Orientalist haram painting from Napoleonic France, it bothers me. I ask myself, are these white reverts cultural appropriators and imperialists? And the mosque will not tolerate these talk in the musallah, but people who feel uncomfortable around reverts like them, distance themselves from them. As for me, the foreign Arabs try to determine my origins. On the USS Mustin, this Bahraini vendor came up to me and asked if I was an Arab?! I was like thinking, "Ewwwww!!!!!!"

One thing I noticed at the mosque I attend:

1.) The Islamicization agenda of the Palestine question.

2.) Sectarian comments geared at the Shiatu Ali.

3.) “Divine mathematics” schemes like if I pray in the seventh month of the lunar year, it is as if I prayed for 1,000 months. Where the hell do Muslims get this stupid shit from?

Omar,

Is Omar your legal name now?

I’m just wondering!

Because Omar is a common Hispanic name in Latin America, the Philippines, and Iberia. A name derived from the Arab name, but is it a common Italian name or one you “christened” yourself after reverting to Islam?

What is Islamic culture?

And why do reverts mimic cultural norms prevalent in the Middle East and say not cultural Muslim norms found in Mali, Indonesia, or Tanzania?

Why is Arab contemporary culture synonymous with Islamic culture?

I think movement itself affects culture, also. The majority of western expats in Egypt—who come from ‘free’, democratic societies—act as though the Raj is still around. They form expat- (meaning white-) only clubs, abuse prostitutes and poor women, the whole 9 yards. It’s mind-boggling. Why do they import only the crappy aspects of their culture? The same kinds of questions can be asked.

ewwww? the fact that he mistook or the fact that it is loathsome to
you, the very thought of being one? do you consider me a foreign
Arab or an Arab American? why should it bother you how people
fix up their living rooms? can they have no autonomy in their fantasies? their homes? Is there perhaps a human urge to play around with identity?

you might also want to consider how the discourse surrounding
the clash of civilizations is contributing to the Islamicization of
political conflicts over land and other natural resources. I agree
there needs to be a separation of church and state. You might also
want to consider how other fundamentalist forces speaking of endtimes are driving this explosive clash.

As a Persian Mexican Muslim of American nationality . . .

-I still listen to mariachi, bachata, salsa, merengue, quebraditas, corridos, reggaeton, cumbia, etc.

-I love dancing, yes, even if that means making contact with women not married to me or related to me.

-I sometimes call salaat by the Farsi term namaaz.

-I don’t think dating is wrong, how the hell do you meet your significant other, arranged marriages, dowries, and bride prices are so 18th century. And now with Muslim women pursuing careers and a public life, saying you want to marry someone who you’ve only oogled for a week in your Arabic 1 class is not sufficient time.

-I love listening to the voice of female singers, I know this gives the Islamist jitters.

-I love participating in Dia de los Santos, including Dia de los Disfrutos (Day of the Dead) and giving a tamale to some deceased relative, lighting votive candles in their memory, and cleaning their grave and leaving marigolds, a rosary behind, and leaving some “offering” at the altar.

-I love celebrating Noruz and other pre-Islamic Zoroasterian holidays.

-I curse the Umayyids, they made Islam a dynastic imperial project, with caliphs who were found of alcohol, women, and taking up the ass with other men.

Ginan,

I think the Salafis are up in a fit that Shia are shaping the course of contemporary Islamic history, despite occasional sectarian persecution of Shia, Shia have been at the forefront of the Islamist revolution sweeping the planet.

Since 1979, with the overthrow of the shah and the bloodless coup and revolution, Sunnis have grudgingly admired the guption of the Shia.

The Salafis are tied to a inept and corrupt monarchy, the bogus custodians of the Two Holy Mosques, who I agree with bin Laden must be overthrown and replaced with the Jordanian Hashemites.

And Shia are entering the Dawa missionary market, the imam said yesterday in the khutba, “Victory is guaranteed to the righteous servants of God” (and it seems God is blessing the Shia while the Salafis are loosing clout for the inability to deliver in the political arena).

Ginan, here’s the problem . . .

Christians claim that Jews must engage in Aaliyah (homecoming to Palestine) for the rapture and Coming of the Christ.

The Book of Revelations speaks of a “religion of the False Prophet of the East” (is this Islam?)

And as for Muslim chauvinists, they fan the flames of hatred to by using Jews as the scapegoats for all that is wrong with the Ummah right now.

In a way, Islamo-fascism is an apt and appropriate term in some ways.

To begin, Europeans became fascists when the middle class felt deceived by the liberal elite.

In the Muslim world, most people are not enjoying the wealth accumulated as a result of petroleum. Many Muslims belong to the working poor, and they feel deceived by their “puppet governments.”

Charismatic preachers like Hitler come along and preach of the early glory of Islam, filled with fabrication and mythology, instead of presenting an honest account of the early Islamic period.

Salafis and Shia are guilty of this crime. They come along, with messages that resonate with people’s fears.

Muslims become paranoid, and Jews become the object of hatred and disdain as they were in Western Europe.

The Germans suffered humiliation, in the same manner that Arabs suffered humiliation now with the toppling of the Baath regime in Baghdad in less than three weeks by the only major superpower.

Sunni princes fear a Shia resurgeance and newfound self-confidence and the flexing might of the Shia in the Middle East.

Sunnis hate Shia like they hate the Jews for their success and victories. They hate the Shia since the Shia pose a challenge to Salafi hegemony and the fictitious notion of Muslim unity, it is preferable to eradicate one tenth of the Ummah for the sake of unity and the preparation of a pan-Islamic supranational caliphate.

Christians and Muslims are fucked up!

And I will repeat, Osama bin Laden is right, we must purge Islam of the Saudi kingship.

We must liberate the Hijaz from their control.

Ginan,

I’m not your typical revert, they normally curse Shia, and I curse Salafis.

Ginan,

I just would like people not assuming I’m Arab simply because I “look Arab.”

:O)

Ginan,

I just would like people not assuming I’m Arab simply because I “look Arab.”

:O)

So, then shall we tell the BalckAmerican Muslims to stop cleaning up thier neighborhoods like the one I grew up in? Shall we tell them that villages getting bombed in Arab countries are more important than kicking drug dealer ass? I have hardly ever seen immigrants take on local development issues; instead of helping us native in fixing the public school system, they want to create Arab, oops I mean “Islamic” schools with names like al-quds and so on. How often do you see immigrants go to mosques where the congragation is majority Blackamerican. I used to go to one in my hometown and we had some immigrants who came by, but most of them came when they wanted to “correct” our practices despite us having a capable, people oriented imam who had been Muslim longer than even our parents had been alive. The interests of converts and convert’s home communities and cities and families are routinely ignored, and that is must stop. Globalization is a nice explanation, except in a truly gloabalized concept, people in the UAE would be intimately concerned with the interests of converts. Tell me truly if this is true or not!

We have to have a basis for directing efforts and that basis should be geography. Globalization is nice, but I think its just an excuse (not necessarily yours, but of others) to perpetuate a foriegn orientation for our communities, and specifically an Arab orientation. After 9/11 when Arab males were being rounded up, how many American converts did you see protesting it, especially Blackamerican ones?

So, we have false calls for unity. I call them false because if they were genuine, immigrants would focus on domestic policy as community goals, but what they really seem to mean is for us to unify on thier foreign goals. Such foreign goals among the religious Arab and Pakistani immigrants often are politcal Islamist goals. I don’t care if political Islamists are popular “over there”. “Right here”, political Islamism is counter to American values and since they choose to be here, advocating and working towards goals which contradict it is a supreme hypocracy.

Let them help thier families in thier countries as they wish, but let them not make them “Islamic” or even community goals until we have sparkling examples of Muslim communities.

- A Salafi in worship, a Sufi in society, a Secularist in government.

In the 1970s, I met, in Boston, a Mexican-American fellow, in his 20's, who had converted to become Greek-Orthodox (Old Calendarist) Christian, and became a novice in a monastery. He went on pilgrimage to Jerusalem, and returned to say that he was often mistaken for a Palestinian and given a hard time. And this happened in the 1970s.

I think Islamists should address issues of concern here in the United States.

There is little that immigrants can do here besides wire reparations to family members back home.

As for Islamic dress and other “Muslim identifiers” we should have American options that don’t stick out of place here in America.

Ginan,

I have nothing against A-rabs! Hahahahaha!!!!

Omar I agree with you about the segregation and lack of real
contact with African American Muslims. Big big problem. It
has to be dealt with. Perhaps this needs to also be viewed within
the context of a larger culture that remains relatively segregated.
I find, for instance, that living in the suburbs you can go on with
your life for years without ever coming into real social contact
with an African American. I don’t think Muslims are exactly immune
to ‘‘white flight’‘ .... I would be interested in learning about integration in churches and looking at this issue comparatively.

I don’t, however, believe that acting locally and thinking globally are mutually exclusive. You know you cannot dictate to people what their
priorities or determine the direction of their activism. There is something intolerably intrusive and corrosive of personal freedom
in this insistence that everybody conform to what you deem not
foreign. People might differ on what it means to help people in their
own communities. For some fighting for the minimum wage might
be the way to go. for others insisting that military spending be diverted to soical spending might be the way to go. for others working at homeless shelters. if you are so uncomfortable at such
mosques then maybe converts will have to build mosques that are
more welcoming and culturally comfortable. sometimes I am more
comfortable hanging around Arab American Christians than Pious
Asian Americans or Arab Americans or earnest converts or what have
you. Whatever happened to tolerance and pluralism?

wire money home? Maybe some are. all of them? PLease! many are
at the mall!

what’s with the generalizations?

Ginan, I think that many churches are quite segregated, which to me is another example of the abuse of religion in manitaining ethnicity. I say abuse as a rleigious person who thinks that religion is for noble humanistic purposes, but as an emerging social scientist, I understand that there are real social dynamics that cause this. Among Muslims, I do not beleive it is racism. I beleive this because I see black Saudis and Asian Saudis (descendents of Hajjis who stayed behind) who seems mostly integrated into Saudi society. I’ve long understood it to be cultural: people who are Arabs who don not do it the Saudi way are more ostracized than Black and Asian practitioners of Saudi culture. I’m not going to excuse this anti-Islamic behavoir just because its done by the general population and I think since Muslims do it other places, the cause is more than just following along with American culture. Hmm, anyway, even though I knew you would just have it throw it in there that Americans are bad too, its good to be confronted with it so I can show its not the end all of the issue. ;-)

- A Salafi in worship, a Sufi in society, a Secularist in government.

>>You know you cannot dictate to people what their
priorities or determine the direction of their activism.

But they DICATE it to me in the mosques all the time!! I suppose there is no objectivity in the issue; I will simply have to fight for the conquest of the immigrant mosques and since they don’t care about converts, I wonder why in the world I should ever care about them. Which gives me a great idea for my next post…

- A Salafi in worship, a Sufi in society, a Secularist in government.

Generalizations, hmmmm . . .

Some Muslims do send money back home for family members by setting aside a portion of their incomes earned here in the United States.

I’m not talking about every Muslim in America who happens to be an immigrant.

Calm down woman! Hahahahahaha!!!

I really object to your claim that I am throwing in Americans are
bad too into the discussion. It is most unfair really. Looking at social dynamics in a comparative context and trying to gain understanding is not tantamount to dissing a culture.

Again, there is an unspoken assumption that self-critique is acceptable but only when it doesn’t impact us or our culture.
I didn’t say the cause is following American culture. I clearly indicated that racism is a problem in the Muslim community. I was
merely pointing out that the social reality for many Muslims is
to lead lives that are segregated and in which contact with African
Americans is rare. It means looking at complex social dynamics and
how they interact with racist tendencies within the muslim community.

You know I am getting really tired of this unspoken assumption
that 1- I am not an American and 2- that everytime I make an
observation or self-critical observation about my country that I am
somehow dissing the culture. You are always speaking about the
need to transcend ethnicity and yet you never let anyone speak about anything without bringing it into the picture. My experience has been
that life in the suburbs is segregated. A lot of my Wasp friends have
said similar things. I am sure if they had said so you wouldn’t have
responded to their observations with a similar accusation of negativity.

I am making no such unspoken assumption. If you wanted to come here and be a citizen, I say ‘welcome’. If you would like to see America become a better place of all, I say ‘please do’. But, often its as if you’re saying that Muslims/Arabs exposure to the West is the root of the problem. I mean, what does racism in America have to do with ethnic chauvenism in the mosques and communities? I don’t see the connection. There is a tremendous amount of rhetoric about unity, but its just not translating to anything, but it sure is being exploited for nefarious purposes; at least I think it is. So, can you blame me for wondering why you brought that into the discussion? If Muslims said, “I don’t hang out with ‘those kinds’ because white people don’t either” then I’d say that there is a damnable connection with American racism. But, I have absolutely never heard of such a rationale. I have no idea why someone would even mention American racism other than to point out that “others do it, too so Muslims/Arabs aren’t so bad”.

Your “wasp” freinds would be commenting about the suburbs and not the mosques, for which they have no experience. So, why would I want to argue with them about white flight to the suburbs, something which is a well known truth?

- A Salafi in worship, a Sufi in society, a Secularist in government.

Ginan,

You never interact with an African American or an African Muslim from Black sub-Saharan Africa at the mosque?

Even in Clairemont Mesa in San Diego, home to the region’s largest mosque, Blacks, mostly immigrants are a common fixture in the mosque. And this constitute the suburban portion of San Diego, which is heavily white.

The city is 60% white, no other major California city has so many pasty white inhabitants.

But contrary to immigrants being racist, many Black Muslim reverts are also surprisingly racist here too.

There is a mosque here, a former Nation of Islam mosque gone mainstream Sunni, some of the male brothers there are not inviting of light skinned Muslims, including me. I would not be welcomed there during Jumaah prayers without receiving the cold shoulder treatment.

‘“Right here”, political Islamism is counter to American values and since they choose to be here, advocating and working towards goals which contradict it is a supreme hypocracy.’ OmarG

It seems that every time issues are discussed you bring up the issue of ‘islamism’. There are many decent people, of different faiths and no faith who opposed the destruction of life and property in the south of Lebanon. would you call those people ‘Islamists’? I think you use ‘islamism’ as a fig leaf to cover the gulf between your belief system and your truncated behaviors..

OmarG: are you aware that not all Arab/Muslims here are for political islam…period…be it ‘there’ or ‘here’. So, would you stop using the ‘islamism’ card {{when posting here}} as a fig leaf to cover the gulf between your beliefs (brotherhood of man) and your truncated behaviors (condeming israel arrogance and abuse of power might be taken as support of hizbollah).

Peter, Paul and Mary recorded a song: this land is my land, this land is your land…..it is inspiring…would be good to listen to.

>>social reality for many Muslims is to lead lives that are segregated and in which contact with African Americans is rare.

Then, how can you explain the lack of integration in multi-ethnic “Islamic” events or the lack of what I would expect to be higher levels of intermarriage among mosque-goers? Why are not the mosques at the forefront of breaking down the ethnic barriers?

Such sgregation, I believe among Muslis, is totally by choice and completely gives the lie to professed Islamic unity. I’m pretty ready to declare Islam as a failure in America becuase people seem quite content with the ethnic clicque situation as it is today.

- A Salafi in worship, a Sufi in society, a Secularist in government.

Omar and Ginan,

I notice that all mosques regardless the number of actual Arabic speakers have signage in English and Arabic, sometimes the signage has no English equivalent next to Arabic signage, this is true of signs that indicate to silence or turn off your cell phones before entering the musallah.

I find this interesting, given the diversity of ICSD, you think they would either only maintain English language signage or have translations for Arabic language signage plates outside the musallah.

The khutbas are delivered in English and their website and upcoming announcements are delivered in English.

But why is Modern Standard Arabic allowed privileges when other languages like Kurdish or Urdu or Dari/Farsi are not given the same language allowances in such a diverse mosque.

They have dawa materials in Spanish and even free copies of “El Coran Noble.”

But the thing about Muslims, is that we preach of unity, but we often times focus too much on what happens outside the United States, not what happens within the United States.

I never see SAT prep classes at mosques, I never see ACT prep classes at mosques, GREs, MCATs, LSATs, etc.

I never see mosques host female sports events, always the male Muslim brothers, but never females being engaged in physical/competitive sports.

I never see mosques near Mexico address the issue of immigration to America, and undocumented immigration, despite the rising tide of Latino reverts who are becoming, at least in San Diego, there are as many Latino reverts attending the mainstream immigrant mosques here in San Diego as much as Black reverts.

I never see mosques champion issues here in America, from medicinal marijuana usage to gay rights including marriage and adoption.

Hmmm . . . the day I hear a mosque champion the rights of variant sexuality in America, is the day I’ll grow a beard.

Center, this has not a damn thing to do with Lebanon. Be on the ball.

Statistics by even CAIR say that only 1/3 of Muslims in America attend the mosques. Thus, many do not come here for "Islamist" purposes so I agree with that. But, I don't really care or even give a fuck about the ethnic Arab-American scene or the Pakistani doctor scene; I am not now nor shall I ever be members of those groups. I am a member of the Muslims group, though.

I care about the mosques because those are religious institutions which should be open to all who claim Islam as a religion and I care about the "Islamic" organizations which claim to speak for the Muslim me. Political Islamism is the big thing among the religious crowd, and it is corrosive and mistaken to make political positions as "Islamic" positions. But, the mosques and the organizations do it all the time.

The problem is that people routinely conflate Arab-American ethnic interests as Muslim interests just because they are also Muslims when the majority of Muslims in the world and in America are not Arabs. Pakistanis sometimes do the same thing, but not as much in my experience. However, the interests of Americans are NOT confalted with Muslim interests. Inner city reform is a major interest of Blackamerican Muslims, but it has almost never been seen as a legitimate Muslim interest in the mosques, among the immigrants and sure as hell not with the national organizations.

So, the only thing I can say now after presenting all my arguments for the past few weeks is: fixing the inner city where I grew up in, making my own nation a better place for its people is more important to me. So fuck your Lebanon; go join Hezbollah if you have the balls.

- A Salafi in worship, a Sufi in society, a Secularist in government.

Omar, said . . .

Then, how can you explain the lack of integration in multi-ethnic “Islamic” events or the lack of what I would expect to be higher levels of intermarriage among mosque-goers? Why are not the mosques at the forefront of breaking down the ethnic barriers?

. . .

I notice that though inter-marriage rates are increasing among young Muslims either raised or born here, for some young Muslims here, there is resistance within their communities to marry outside their ethnicity.

This is true of some groups like the Somali Muslim community.

But then again though, it is common that immigrant communities fear the “losing of identity” as generations make roots here in America.

Inter-ethnic marriage is a common indicator of assimilation. And Muslims are engaging in this phenomenon.

In France, 1 out of 4 North African women marry non-Muslim, non-North African men.

That’s huge for a European Muslim population often cast as resistant to assimilation.

There is progress being made here, but children do face pressures from their parents and even I face the pressure of marrying a Muslimah.

Bonkers, save me oh great gerbil, for I become too hostile!

- A Salafi in worship, a Sufi in society, a Secularist in government.

You’re funny Omar!

Calm down man, you’re Sicilian . . . I could imagine why the Arabs only stayed in Sicily for two centuries . . .

You Italians were probably too much for them!

Let me rephrase what I said above: don’t join Hezbollah. Get your ass down to the bank, drain your accounts, go to the airport and fly to Beirut to help rebuild. Less talk, more action. Be on the ball.

- A Salafi in worship, a Sufi in society, a Secularist in government.

Hezbollah is already rebuilding the country, courtesy of Iranian foreign aid from petro consumers.

OmarG: quite an outburst of unfriendly emotions.

Allah yahdeena wa yahdeek, ya Omar!

Could you translate please Center or provide the Arabic lettering, since I don’t understand transliteration schemes with translation as well.