Good to see that your outreach is working. Perhaps when you disagree with a fellow Muslim, you can still help non-Muslims see the reasoning behind the alternate view, and basically agree to disagree with the Muslim whose opinions you oppose. And no, we didn’t assume that since there hadn’t been a Friday prayer review, that you had been pounding them back at the pub instead.

Islam is too reliant on man-made innovation and bidah.

Muslims are too afraid of being in error, of accepting spiritual diversity and difference of opinion, too pre-occupied with uniformity and unity for the sake of standing up against the "unbelievers."

I tried the Islamist masquerade and the "progressive" delusions of "change" and find that neither suits me. Faith too me is nothing more than a coping delusion, to me God is not a reality only if you will its existence, ritual is merely our expression of wanting to conform, but the Islam I have come to know is rigid, legalistic, overly scholastic, and complicated by rules upon rules and layers of baggage.

I have my own baggage.

<ISBN number. It is a collection of sayings and anecdotes attributed to Prophet Muhammad, by oral tradition, although not found in the Qur’an.

There is one saying which advises that, when a non believer says “Peace upon you (Salam…)” you SHOULD NOT give the traditional response as you would to a fellow believer, but rather, you should simply say “The same upon you.” This anecdote proceeds to explain that the blessings and well-wishings of unbelievers are actually curses. When you reply “the same upon you,” you are cleverly holding up a mirror to reflect the curse back upon the unbeliever.

I encountered a similar notion during the years that I worshipped with Old Calendarist Greek Orthodox Christians. Their notion (at least among the very strict) is that the prayers of heretics are curses, and that one should not pray together with those who are Roman Catholic or Protestant, even though they claim to be Christian, since, in the eyes of the ultra Orthodox, the Christ that they worship is a false Christ, an angel of light (Lucifer), sent to deceive them.

St. Paul in the Epistles opened the door to such thinking when he warned of false Christs, and angels of light.

I noticed in one hospital in the USA, a plaque on the wall meant to be an expression of interfaith unity. The plaque had a quotation from each of the many Abrahamic and non-Abrahamic religions. I must make an effort to get the exact text of the plaque.

The Jain quote displayed the most obvious concern for the well-being, not simply of all fellow humans, but of all fellow creatures and sentient beings. Quotations from other religions were more obviously directed towards fellow mankind, omitting the rest of the animal kingdom. Only the Islamic quotation stood out as endorsing charity and good-will ONLY among fellow beliving Muslims, with no mention of the unbeliever.

Surprised Sitaram that only Muslims would be concerned with Muslims and no one else, notice how tribal the “universal” faith of the “final revelation” is in practice, how much crap has been added, that the beauty that is the Qur’an is well replaced with some bizarre second-hand sources attributed to a man who deemed himself a prophet.

After I posted the above, I remembered the following famous words:

With malice toward none, with charity for all

Sounds Biblical, doesn't it?

It is actually from Lincoln's Second Inaugural Address, Mar. 4, 1865.

http://quotes.zaadz.com/topics/charity

With malice toward none, with charity for all, with firmness in the right as God gives us to see the right, let us strive on to finish the work we are in; to bind up the nation's wounds; to care for him who shall have borne the battle, and for his widow and his orphan – to do all which may achieve and cherish a just and lasting peace, among ourselves, and with all nations.

Both the Gettysburg address and the Second Inaugural Address mark the height of Lincoln's eloquence. The London Times called the latter the most sublime state paper of the century. Exactly two months later it was read over its author's grave." – Complete Works of Abraham Lincoln, new and enl. ed., ed. John G. Nicolay and John Hay, vol. 9, p. 44, footnote (1905). An excerpt appears on a plaque on the Veterans Administration building in Washington, D.C.: "To care for him who shall have borne the battle and for his widow, and his orphan."

As I search further in google, I find this saying, attributed to Prophet Muhammad:

http://quotes.zaadz.com/Muhammad

If anyone removes (one of the) anxieties of this world from a believer, God will remove (one of the) anxieties from him on the Day of Resurrection; if one smoothes the way for one who is destitute, God will smooth the way for him in this world and the next; and if anyone conceals the faults of a Muslim, God will conceal his faults in this world and the next. God helps a man as long as he helps his brother. If anyone pursues a path in search of knowledge God will thereby make easy for him a path to paradise.

Source: Sayings of Muhammad. by Prof. Ghazi Ahmad

Notice how the emphasis is upon charity to the fellow believer, and not to one’s neighbor in general, much less towards one’s enemy.

Concealing the faults of a fellow believer is hypocrisy, even an imam said this and this is one of the things I had issues with when being a Muslim.

Gustavo; Well, between what an Imam says and what the prophet (saws) said, I’m willing to take the Prophet’s words as more representative of what is Islamic and what is not.

I don’t really get Muslims like you. Seriously, if you think Islam is bullshit, it’s not too hard to find the door. I also don’t get you guys’ propensity for hanging out denouncing Islam. I was raised Mormon and later came to believe it was bullshit, but I don’t go around posting on Mormon message boards to tell them how whack they are, or how I’m a “cultural Mormon”, or talk about how I believe in Mormonism except OOPS I really don’t because I see nothing wrong with violating its very basic, very explicit tenets. “The Book of Mormon is real but Jospeh Smith was a fake.” I left the party when I didn’t want to dance anymore. I really have trouble grasping why so many seemingly embittered ex-muslims, culture muslims, psuedo muslims, etc, can’t do the same.

Omar, interesting topic. I never caught a khutba at ICT. The first time I walked in, I saw a Saudi Flag hanging in the foyer and promptly walked back out :-) I ended up going back later anyway, but I have had a couple friends with bad experiences (which I may or may not have mentioned, doesn;t really matter).

What department do you teach in, if I can ask?

Salaams DA, Gustavo is good people; he’s just figuring things out for himself out loud. He’ll make it to what’s good to go, if indeed he already hasn’t. As for me, I don’t teach; I’m still a grad student and there seems no money for that which really makes the US look stupid for vastly underfunding Middle Eastern and Islamic Studies (called Near Eastern Studies at UA); I suppose “kill ‘em all” is the latest strategy fad and forget about winning through accomodating thier culture… The other guys teach, though. Saudi flag, huh? That explains alot! However, its not there as far as I can tell anymore. I don’t really socialize because, well, no one bothers with me. I suspect it has something to do with 95% of them being Arabs/Pakistani/Somali immigrants and me being not. That’s probably why I end up hanging out with mostly other converts who had sense enough not to convert to the immigrant’s culture but to Islam.

- A Salafi in worship, a Sufi in society, a Secularist in government.

DA,

Did I ever say Islam was bullshit?

No, I simply have issues with Muslims and the rules upon rules that are invented and added that deal with such trivial matters as lacquer on a nail to the permissibility of plucking a unibrow.

I go through mood swings, I guess I can’t just accept what’s in “pamphlet proselytizing Islam” and accept it as truth without analyzing and deconstructing it.

And what qualifies you to determine who a pseudo-Muslim is?

In my “cultural Persian Muslim” family, my family exhibits a high degree of tolerance to anyone who labels themself Muslim, traditionally in how they were raised, sectarianism is shunned and tradition mandates to defer all judgment to the Creator.

Such a form of adaab was necessary if you come from a society like Afghanistan.

But I like playing the devil’s advocate and sometimes I get melodramatic at times.

DA and Omar,

I’m still Muslim, what changed my mind was interacting with two classmates in this course I’m taking who also happen to be Muslim.

I guess I have to calm down sometimes and realize that people are people, regardless of the labels they assign themselves. It’s hard when you are passionate about something, but find yourself disappointed by some who share the same label as yourself.

Don’t worry; there were times when I wanted to bail out, too. A thoughtful person who doesn’t at least reconsider thier faith is a robot, in my opinion, and I don’t want to be a robot.

- A Salafi in worship, a Sufi in society, a Secularist in government.

“I don’t really get Muslims like you. Seriously, if you think Islam is bullshit, it’s not too hard to find the door.”

What’s awesome is that you don’t need to get Muslims like him or anyone esle. So you’re off the hook!

And as far as finding the door: I know a number of really real real real really real muslim Muslims who are really real Muslim who are just so real and are real Muslims and just love being real Muslims who would still just say fuck off to that, and if you don’t like conflict and critique from within without and every other blessed angle than I suggest the door for thee.

If you actually think there is a door it seems to me that you assume there are walls and a roof too. Perhaps you are confusing the willing or unwilling return to Allah that is Islam for a treehouse?

Ugh, this whole if you don’t like it get out bullshit is fucking DONE with! Perhaps DA some people are not as easily duped into another religion as others. Some people like to take their time being duped.

Peace.

GM:

Resist it. Embrace it. Love it. Hate it. Some of the best relationships in life are the most tumultuous! If every person that said “fuck this” to their spiritual path at one point or another ran for the DA’s door, we’d be without some of the greatest spiritual minds for God’s sake. Remember, all the great Prophets reject the message in the beginning. That’s a sure sign of humility.

Peace to you.

I talked with DA on MSN.

He’s cool, he’s just been feeling under the weather.

I can accept criticism, I’m not that sensitive.