As I reflect upon these many things, it occurs to me that "Submission" (Islam) or "surrender" is really the most appropriate name for the religion of the Qur’an.

Hardly fair, sir. I’ve never heard a sound theological argument for Honor Killings.

First of all, Sitaram, you missed the point of my post. Majorly.

My post was not yet another screed about how women are subjugated in Islam, blah blah blah. It was about the burden of guilt that I carry because I have seen and heard such things but was not able to do anything much.

If you reread the post, you will notice that not all Muslims in these two anecdotes think that honour killings are the answer when girls rebel—quite the contrary. Both of Thabet’s brothers-in-law oppose his plans to kill his daughter, and eventually their views prevail. The young social work student tries to work out a deal between the father and daughter.

The reason I wasn’t able to do much has little to do with the meaning of the word "Islam" being "submission."

Second of all, your comment doesn’t distinguish among the Shariah and its various interpretations, local cultures (which aren’t static) and globalizing pressures. These are different though obviously overlapping phenomena; they can’t all be put into one category as "Islam."

And, your claim that women’s submission to family and clerical authority will prevent honour killings is way off. In some cases, women have been killed because baseless rumours circulated about them, although they had not done anything at all. Honour killing, like every other kind of violence against women, is about power and control, not about women’s misbehaviour.

Dear Muslim Hedonist,

I do not believe I asserted that submission or obedience will PREVENT honor killings, or forms of legal punishment. I merely tried to suggest that submission and proper behavior (conformity), will reduce the possibility of punishment.  Obviously there is nothing that can totally prevent false witness and slander.  I shall carefully re-read this thread and see if expressed something unintentional.

When I read any post here, and I do try to read many, I do not take pot-shots at the substance of the post, or make ad hominem attacks at the person of the poster.  I simply react and express myself, perhaps regarding the topic of the post, or perhaps something that I am reminded of, or perhaps even something that is not directly related to the post.

I think this is a healthy form of brain-storming if you will.  It is good for non-Muslims such as I to attempt to learn more about Islam. It is good for Muslims to hear, at times, what non-Muslims think and feel.

I have certainly been corrected at times, in the forum for my errors or misconceptions, during the past year.  For example, I made reference to a frequently heard statement that more books each year are translated into Spanish, than have been translated into Arabic in all of history.  Laury SIlvers made the excellent point that most Arab speakers are fluent in other languages, so translating books into Arabic is not so essential, or any barometer of something lacking in Arab culture.  I stand corrected and acknowledge that I was misinformed.

During this weeks posting and dialog here, I have become very conscious of the important question of "what constitutes submission" in Islam, and perhaps a closely related question of "how much can one change or reform or modernize Islam before it ceases to be recognizable as Islam."

Even if it should be the case that I am totally misguided in my thinking and misinformed in my readings, yet free dialog and expression here will stimulate the thoughts of others, and perhaps help me to correct my faulty understanding.

I shall now carefully reread your original post, and the other posts in this thread, and see if I can sort things out in my mind to make comments which are more to your liking

I am reminded of an incident in Cairo Egypt, several years ago, where the enemy of some professor falsely accused him of some violation of Islamic law, and caused him many problems with the legal system there. 

People should not use religious or civil law as a weapon to strike out at their enemies, but, unfortunately, such things do happen in every society.

My apologies if I have posted in haste or ignorance in your thread, and have upset you in some fashion.  I do find all of my participation here very stimulating.  I want to learn new things. And I want to find some way to relate in a positive, peaceful, constructive fashion with the world of cultures and beliefs that surround me.

I don’t think I am such a bad sort of person, once you get to know me.

Sohail,
My apologies for being too vague and not elaborating.

My comment has nothing to do with defending honor killings or violence. My comment has everything to do with the simple observation that had various people actually "submitted" to the expectations of their family, with regard to attire, music, courtship, make-up and marriage, then there would most likely not have been any anger or retaliation.  Honor killings are wrong, but, if someone were totally in submission to the requirements of Islam, and the expectations of family and society, then, they would MOST LIKELY not have enraged their family or community, and incited them to unjust actions of violence and retaliation.

To my mind, submission means to obey without question what is commanded.

That unfortunate young woman in Arabia, sentenced to lashes, would not have been in her situation in the first place if she had completely submitted to Qur’anic law and family expectations, and had not  secretly conversed with a man on the telephone, given him a photo, and then met with him in his car, unchaperoned, to retrieve the photos.

There are young men who do not want to accept an arranged marriage, but seek a love marriage.  There are young women who what to wear make-up, and do not want to wear hijab, and be chaperoned by family members.   That is their freewill choice, but one can hardly consider it "submission."

I am not making any statement about whether the "rules and regulations" in various Islamic cultures are right or wrong.  The simple fact is that such rules and regulations do exist in those cultures, and those who "submit" to them, and obey, will PROBABLY avoid any form of punishment (whether that punishment is just, or unjust in the case of honor killings).

In Tehran, there are morality courts. If a woman is observed with attire that is considered inappropriate, then they are brought to the morality court, and instructed in the proper manner in which to live (in the opinion of the court), and then they are required to sign a statement promising that they will not commit such a transgression in the future.

There are women in Tehran who are heavy cigarette smokers. I know one personally. But they cannot smoke in public. If they do, they will be brought before a morality court and punished.  Males are free to smoke in public.  The women smoke in the privacy of their homes, to avoid punishment.  Now, I doubt that Qur’an or Hadith has anything to say about smoking per se.  Yet, during Ramadan, even males are expected not to smoke at all, either in public or private, from sunrise to sunset.  In the matter of smoking, Islamic submission involves obedience NOT to something that is haram or halal in the Qur’an, but rather, obedience to what the community expects and enforces.

If you are observed eating or drinking in public during Ramadan, in certain countries, then you will be arrested and punished.  Those who "submit" to what their culture expects will most likely have no problem.  Those who do not "submit" but disobey will, if discovered, receive some kind of punishment. Submission and compliance can never, of course, totally eliminate the possibility of slander and false witness.

Honor killings are monstrous, but, I doubt that those who "submit" and obey and comply will become victims.

Therefore, my comment that "Islam means submission" is not unfair, but is totally appropriate.

In other words, unjust punishments, such as "honor killings" are provoked because of failure to submit (obey). The injustice of the punishment does not ameliorate or expunge the act of disobedience and rebellion.

An honour killing is murder in Canada.