Humm you must not know the background of Mormons or you nor anyone else would compare them, and what they believe with Islam.
Mormons believe that blacks are an inferior race and in their Book of Mormon they say that a woman, a black woman named “Egyptus” was the down fall of mankind. They went out of their way to demonize dark skinned people and especially blacks. Some time recently, and I mean in the last twenty years they sort of changed their “outward” ideas of race, and started to allow blacks to “join” their church.
But blacks cannot be “elders” or “in the heirarchy” of the church. They are segregansionist and racist at their root. It is basic part of their religion and belief is it any surprise that you never see black faces or hardly any color represented in their commercials? As far as it being a close cousin to Islam I beg to differ. There is more blood between Islam and Christianity than Islam and Mormonism. Outside of belief (very quietytly kept) of multiple wives there is nothing attractive about this religion. They have managed to keep to themselves and build a religion that is counter to what Christians believe, mainstream Christians see them as a cult web search the Bible Answer Man and search Mormons. I think you have it wrong and I fear you will steer many isolated estranged muslims into the path of these people by your well meaning article. But they are not Christians and their beliefs are not understood or mainstream, only a few select know the real goings on inside their temples. Christians see them as a cult close to satan worshipers because they think that Joseph Smith was not a prophet but a man who was a liar, he supposedly found golden tablets in the desert with writing on them that only he or the angel Moroni could interpret, where are the golden tablets he found? And if they exist, which I highly doubt, why aren’t they in a museum and under the hands of archeologist? Jehovah Witnesess are close brothers to Mormons, they do not believe in plural marriage. They do not believe that Jesus was the son of God either. Again, they are not viewed as Christians but as a cult. I would say to muslims who are searching for a answer to their issues with Islam, search inside the faith, and be careful of these cults inside America, all that glitters is not gold.

Lailah,

You have some strong views. I do not agree with their beliefs nor did I mention that they were mainstream. I am familiar with their racist past, and though they have made reforms which you deem as half-backed, I have known quite a few Mormons who are not white. In fact, growing up in Southern California, my first interaction with Mormons was not with whites but the Pacific Islander community.

Mormon missionary activity has been strong in the South Pacific, and they have made inroads in this community. When I was in the Navy, out of curiosity I attended a Mormon service, and an African American sailor who was new to the faith, was baptized.

Mormons have reached out to the Muslim community, and the Muslim community in my backyard has responded in kind.

I have personally had no issue with Mormons I have encountered, though becoming acquainted with their beliefs, they are far from being mainstream.

However, you mention that some consider Joseph Smith a liar and a charlatan, the same accusation among some Christians have been levied against Muhammad and Islam. Comparing Mormonism to satan worship has also been levied against Islam.

I take a South Asian approach to Islam, “There are many paths to the Truth.”

First: I have been reading progressiveislam.org for quite a while and really love the diverse opinions expressed, but this is the first time I’ve been motivated to post myself.

Second: In the past I have always found myself siding with Lailah23 over GustavoMustafa, but the tables have been turned in this discussion. However, I think it’s only because Lailah may not have access to unbiased material on this issue. She’s usually “spot-on!”

OK:
As a convert to Islam raised in the Mormon church I consider myself qualified to weigh-in on this topic.

There is no mention of “Egyptus” in the Book of Mormon. The name “Egyptus” is mentioned in the “Pearl of Great Price,” however. What’s the difference? Ok, The Book of Mormon is the supposed history of the ancient American continents, recorded on golden plates, which Joseph Smith claimed to have found buried in Hill Cumorah (upstate New York) after receiving several revelations. Lailah is correct in asking why they’re not on display; Mormon tradition holds that the plates were taken-up into heaven after their translation.
The Pearl of Price is an entirely different sort of book. Alright, back before the ancient egyptian script had been deciphered, Joseph Smith somehow got ahold of some papyri from Egypt. After translating the papyri with Divine aid, since the Rosetta Stone had yet to be deciphered, Joseph Smith claimed that the contents of the papyri were two, long-lost scriptures written by Moses and Abraham, respectively. After the deciphering of the Rosetta Stone the papyri were revealed to only be a set of funeral documents, but Mormon tradition holds that the translation which now appears in the Pearl of Great Price was a hidden, esoteric account hidden within the seemingly ordinary contents of the papyri.
Here, in the Pearl of Great Price, the name “Egyptus” is mentioned, but there is no reference to race, color or the downfall of humankind. Egyptus is the name of both Ham’s wife and their daughter, who would be the granddaughter of Noah. Egyptus, the daughter, is believed to have discovered the land of Eygpt and given birth to the original Pharaoh who was supposed to be a wise ruler (not the one that enslaved the Israelites).
Racism definitely has its place in Mormon history—very recently even—but its not necessarily doctrinal, it’s more cultural. Just as the unintended existence of sexism within Islam is an Arabic cultural holdover, so too is racism also described as an American cultural element which became entwined with Mormon practice. Still, there’s no excuse for the church’s waiting until 19friggin78 to allow blacks to receive the priesthood. Now, all male church members are allowed to serve in all priesthood positions, even that of elder, which really isn’t a very high position. Google Adesina Olukanni, he’s probably the highest ranking black Mormon currently.

As for their being Christian or not… Well, I imagine there are many fellow Muslims who would claim our participation in this website is evidence enough of our being kufr. Christianity is diverse, Islam is diverse. Who, but God, can judge whether one is or is not a Christian or a Muslim. Mormonism is full of well-meaning individuals, but the majority are 100% oblivious, media-fed Americans who harbor all of the misconceptions which Fox News pushes on them.

I’m sorry this was so long-winded, but I feel the need to defend anyone involved in what they believe to be an earnest search for God, no matter how far off the path they appear to be.

Lailah seems to be disappointed with the tribalism that often appears in the cultural Muslim scene, for those born in the faith, who have been raised to be slightly biased towards their neighbor.

Reading from several of her posts, she jumps to conclusions on my opinions and has made some rather inflammatory comments concerning Iranian women being “whores.”

How is this reasonable collinerd?

Iran is undergoing some social transformations, with or without clerical approval, many Iranians are turning against Islam, seeing it as a vestige of the past and to some nationalists, Islam is seen as a “foreign Semitic religion” that subjugated ancient Persian culture to Arab colonialism. These are not my sentiments, but this opinion can be often heard from anti-Islam Iranians, which is an emerging minority.

However, I have felt no need to respond to Lailah’s comments concerning the character of Iranian women. Can Iranians be vain at times and self-absorbed? Sure, many are in my experience, but that doesn’t account for all Iranians.

The article from the LA Times only highlights the unusual relationship that exists between Mormons and Muslims in Southern California.

Honestly, Lailah comes across as being a member of the NOI at times, since she has espoused some level of Black cultural nationalism in my opinion, which isn’t bad thing in my opinion.

Even if their doctrine may come across disagreeable to most mainstream Muslims, I have to admire their “American approach to Islam.”

I guess some Muslims new to the faith are turned off by my cultural nationalism. To me as someone born in a Muslim heritage, I find that Islam has been racialized to some extent.

There is a common belief that the closer you are to the Ka’aba geographically speaking, the more blessed you are. I don’t know the source of this idea, however, this entailed that Arabs received more blessings than Persians or Turks, who were more blessed than the Desi, who had more blessings than the Malay or Mandingo from Mali.

When I encounter many converts, I find it interesting how they adopt Pakistani and Arab cultural mores, why don’t Muslim converts in the States adopt Malay forms of hijab or Somali khimars?

I guess being part Iranian/Afghan, and being of a Jaafari Twelver Shia background, a “Persian brand of Islam” was not merely an expression of seeking Truth, but a means of expressing cultural difference and pride/expression. Ashura to me was not merely commemorating the early schism that occurred in the Muslim community, but a means of identifying myself culturally as different. Islam is implemented differently in Iran than elsewhere in the Muslim world, often times with contradictory messages encoded under the surface.

I’m confused, like many of my cousins over the role of Islam in my life.

I’m not religious in a traditional Muslim sense, I consider Muhammad and all the Prophets as men who spoke universal truths, but were still mortal.

I consider that the Revelations that became the Qur’an were not novel or original, they merely reinstated what was previously revealed by earlier Prophets.

I don’t know if God exists or not, nor do I seem concerned to find out, I find myself more inclined to South Asian forms of spirituality be it Yoga or Buddhism.

When a convert talks about shari’a and how we Muslims need to implement it in our lives, I cringe inside, dismissing his assertion as wishful thinking, wanting to confront him with the dangers that so-called “shari’a” has done in the Muslim world from promoting religious intolerance to denigrating women and children in the name of patriarchy.

I have my doubts about the Hadith and Sunnah, feeling that the Qur’an is sufficient for all our answers, however, I’m not sure if I really believe in Islam or the Abrahamic prophetic tradition anymore. I feel at times that I only identify with Islam and label myself Muslim for cultural reasons.

I thank C for taking me to school on the bits i didn’t know of Mormons. However, I stand my ground on my view of the religion because as a black person I know what they have done, and continue to do towards blacks especially and people of color absolutely. I believe that there are pacific Islanders and other non black minorities welcomed into their fold. I think they are smart enough to realize that a Lily white organization in the US only will attract attention of civil rights advocates and there had been plenty of that in the past. I have had the missionaries come to my home many times, and each time I open my door to them and talk. I believe their hearts are good, but they are misguided. I have worked during some very bad conditions in national disasters and the Mormons showed up andworked harder than everyone without a complaint. But I say once again, this doesn’t make it a good or mainstreamreligoin. They behave and act like cult members. Persian women whores? If I said that, I dont’ recall, I am sorry, astafurallah. But the Persians women I have met do act and dress in a very dunya way. I’ve been to Persian parties and even the little girls of nine wear make up and dance suggestively in front of men and they are encouraged! I think, I know there are many paths to God, but I do not believe the every unhindered path leads to God. The three main religions of the earth, Judaism, Islam, and Christianity are brothers and share many basic tenents. I still don’t see how anyone can compare mormons to Islam, doing so means you haven’t studied it thoroughly or its inpact on many blacks who joined the church early on and who suffered. No religion that bases its beliefs on racist beliefs can be believed or embraced. If you are dissatisfied with Islam I would suggest mainstream Christianity or even as one Palestinian brother decided, he wanted to be Jewish, yes! And I said to him, with some surprise in my voice, “Then follow your path.” Because he wasn’t going to change his mind, it was clear. Gustavo I think at times you reflect a close association with a portion of America that is very white, affluent and not one that rubs shoulders with the likes of me, an African american muslim. And by the way, I am married to a Persian man, so I am not as biased against Persians as you may think, I am an observer and from what I’ve read on this blog and some of the posting were yours, you seem to need to grow up a bit aobut race relations in this country and the sensitivities layered onto Islam by them. As if Islam doesn’t have its own issues. Christianity to my knowledge and I’ve studied all religions, is the only one that does not use race to denigrate any race of people, it comes down hard on Jews, (religion) Jew is not a race.

The Mormon Hierarchy: Origins Of Power

This is arguably the most important new book to appear on Mormonism in the past quarter century, since Fawn Brodie’s landmark biography of Joseph Smith, No Man Knows My History (1971). Quinn’s subject is the evolution and function of the Mormon ecclesiastical and theocratic hierarchy during the lifetime of its founder Joseph Smith (1805-1844) and through its transfer to Utah in 1847 following his assassination. Although not as overtly damaging as Brodie’s work, it will be harder for Mormons to dismiss this book’s deeply disturbing implications because of its more dispassionate style.

The author, D. Michael Quinn, is a deeply pious, seventh-generation Mormon and former Brigham Young University history professor, his peers hail him as a consummate scholar whose work reflects painstaking attention to detail. (The book’s 1,296 endnotes and 7 appendices make up well over half its 685 pages.) Central to the credibility of Quinn’s massive synthesis is the unprecedented access he enjoyed to the archives of the church of the Latter-day Saints (LDS) over a 15-year period. Furthermore, Quinn withholds judgment on the claimed supernatural experiences of Joseph Smith and other Mormon leaders, and lets their observed actions speak for themselves.

Mormonism has been described as “faith cast as history.” This aptly describes the LDS church’s claim that it was founded after Smith received two levels of priesthood authority directly from heavenly messengers in 1829 (the Aaronic priesthood from John the Baptist and the Melchizedek priesthood from Peter, James, and John). This authority is said to have been lost since the days of Jesus’ apostles. Since only the LDS church has this restored priesthood authority, the Mormons allege themselves to be the one true church. Nevertheless. Quinn reveals the diaries and records of Smith and other Mormon leaders, which show that there was no claim to an angelic restoration of authority until 1834. In fact, Mormon priesthood concepts evolved over several years, and the accounts of ordination by heavenly messengers were later written back into Mormon scripture retrospectively (18-19). Of the Melchizedek priesthood in particular, Quinn concludes, “When retroactive changes are eliminated from original documents, evidence shows that the second angelic restoration of apostolic authority could not have occurred before the church’s organization on April 6, 1830” (18). Mormon historians tend to avoid this evidence because it means the church was organized without proper priesthood authority (26).

Quinn also shows the logical relationship between Smith’s unique authority claims, his increasing sense of “ethical independence” from civil government, his “enshrine[ment] of secrecy” (191), and ultimately the establishment of a functioning theocratic state in Nauvoo, Illinois, with himself ordained as king and lawgiver.

In 1835 Smith announced a doctrine Quinn calls “theocratic ethics.” He used this initially to “justify his violation of Ohio’s marriage laws by performing a marriage for Newel Knight and the undivorced Lydia Goldthwaite without legal authority to do so” (88). Smith declared, “I have done it by the authority of the holy Priesthood and the Gentile law has no power to call me to an account for it” (88). Other illegal marriages of legally undivorced spouses followed, resulting in bigamous, polygamous, and polyandrous marriages, and Smith’s own secret sexual relationships with polygamous wives as young as 14 (89).

The theocratic nature of nineteenth century Mormonism was responsible for much of the conflict and persecution that dogged it. Mormons were largely centered in a succession of socially cohesive communities first in Kirtland, Ohio, then in Nauvoo, Illinois, and finally in the Utah territory. This communal nature was closely related to the group’s authority claims: to accept Smith’s religious authority was “to accept a social, political, economic, and cultural system” (79). Out of the frequent persecution that Mormons experienced during this period grew an indelible world view of Mormonism as the object of religious persecution. Mormons, however, were often the perpetrators as well as the victims of intimidation (92, 100). Indeed, “fear of being overwhelmed politically, socially, culturally, economically by Mormon immigration was what fueled anti-Mormonism wherever the Latter-day Saints settled during Joseph Smith’s lifetime” (91).

Smith’s vision of the kingdom of God on earth reached its climax in Nauvoo, where the Mormons regrouped in 1838. The State legislature granted Smith a charter, allowing him to serve as mayor, chief justice of the municipal court, and commander of his own militia. By 1844 Nauvoo was the second most populous city in Illinois, and a member of the Mormon religious hierarchy virtually filled every post in its civil government, making it “the first ministerial theocracy in American history” (106). In fact, the Nauvoo Legion had nearly 3,000 troops at a time when there were only 8,500 soldiers in the entire U.S. army.

Beneath the surface of Nauvoo was a polygamous underground known only to select members of the Mormon hierarchy hand-picked by Smith. In 1842 he established an “Anointed Quorum.” Sworn to secrecy, they were introduced to “the principle” — polygamy as a divinely revealed path to exaltation in eternity. In the spring of 1844, three months before his death, Smith also formed the ultrasecret “Council of Fifty,” which ordained him “King, Priest, and Ruler over Israel on Earth” (128). Quinn estimates that 90-95 percent of Mormons at the time knew nothing of the secret things of Mormonism (170). Nevertheless, Smith was cautiously moving to show his hand to the uninitiated. A March 15, 1844 editorial in the LDS Times and Seasons newspaper criticized separation of church and state and concluded that “the church must not triumph over the state, but actually swallow it up” (122).

Smith had overstepped himself. Some members of the Council of Fifty, already uneasy about polygamy, “regarded Smith’s kingly ordination as treasonous” (137), and they betrayed him. His declaration in a May 12, 1844 public sermon that “I calculate to be one of the instruments of setting up the Kingdom of Daniel by the word of the Lord, and I intend to lay a foundation to revolutionize the world” (137) provoked a strong negative reaction within the Mormon community. A dissident Mormon newspaper was formed (Nauvoo Expositor) to expose Smith’s promotion of polygamy and the attempt to make himself theocratic king and lawgiver. By the authority of the Nauvoo City Council, over which he presided, Smith immediately ordered the press and papers destroyed. Within days, in response to these actions, Illinois Governor Thomas Ford ordered Smith to turn himself in to the Carthage, Illinois jail. While he was awaiting trial a mob stormed the jail and brutally murdered him.

Quinn leaves it to his readers to decide the lessons of this disturbing saga. Surely one lesson for Christian readers is that if Smith’s opponents had allowed the judicial process to work its course (as Romans 13 dictates), both the prophet and his religious experiment would have been effectively exposed 150 years ago. Instead his martyrdom reenergized his movement. Mormon readers will have to decide whether their faith can survive with no genuine historical foundations for the restoration of priesthood authority. They will also be forced to come to grips with the essential role of secrecy and dishonesty within Mormon origins.

— Luke P. Wilson

Luke P. Wilson, a graduate of Calvin Theo­logical Seminary, is the executive director of Gospel Truths Ministries in Grand Rapids, Michigan.

Lailah,

I was wondering how you would respond to my comments.

I have never had anyone point this out to me: “Gustavo I think at times you reflect a close association with a portion of America that is very white, affluent and not one that rubs shoulders with the likes of me, an African american muslim.”

I will admit though, since we are on the discussion of race and religion, and since Obama has said it is time America engages in an open dialogue on this issue, Sunday morning is not the only segregated time of the week, Friday noontime is for many Muslims.

I’m not white, I’m the product of miscegenation. However, by some census criteria, I would fall under the category of “white.” Growing up, English was spoken in my household, not Farsi/Dari or Spanish. My family did not practice Islam. They were nominal Muslims, they didn’t feel a connection to someone just because they wore a kufi or hijab. They felt a connection to other Persians be they from Iraq, Iran, Afghanistan, Pakistan, India, Israel, etc. My experience with Islam from the onset was very sectarian in nature.

I only decided to become Muslim after 9/11, I was raised Christian since my Christian grandmother had more of a determining factor in my early religious education than my Muslim grandfather. My Muslim grandfather was largely absent from my childhood, he was more the man with the “funny accent” I mimicked when he was away. In fact, my step-father called him “Gandhi.” I didn’t grow up in the most politically correct household.

I’m young, and at times I may come across naive. I grew up in Inglewood, CA (the same hood as Tyra Banks) but I grew up in a predominantly Latino area of Inglewood. My interaction with African Americans was limited, my mother didn’t even consider sending me to a school in Inglewood, fearful that African American children would tease me for my effeminate mannerisms.

Growing up in Los Angeles, Latinos and African Americans rubbed shoulders together but kept separate in their respective worlds. I never felt at ease with African Americans, from an early age, African American children would tease me as a “sissy” and the first time I was called a “faggot” was from the mouth of an African American student in this Christian school I attended. I was gay bashed by an African American, it seemed many African Americans were more uncomfortable with homosexuality than Muslims are.

My sisters had issues with African American youth their age too.

Los Angeles and California in general, has a small African American population. Yet, as Latinos continue to increase their share of the population, economic competition over scarce resources will intensify the mistrust that sometimes is present between Latinos and African Americans. Communities that once constituted the Black historic core of Los Angeles are Latino barrios now, but African Americans still yield a disproportionate amount of political power compared to the Latino majority.

Growing up, my mother insisted on us “assimilating to the American mainstream.” This was racially casted as being “white.” In order to succeed in America, being “white” and aspiring to live like “upper class whites” was stressed. My mother’s family in Afghanistan and Iran, were not “pure Persian.” In fact, my family is ethnically Kurdish, Turcomen, and Pushtun. However, they “assimilated” into the “dominant Persian” culture of both countries for the sake of getting ahead.

Most people are surprised that I grew up in a community still stereotyped as being majority African American and immortalized in popular culture in such films as “Soul Plane” and “The Wood.”

In many Muslim cultures, like in Iran, men show affection to other men. Being in the Navy, American sailors say this as proof that Arabs were “gay.” Masculinity is different in the Midde East, even sometimes interacting with some African American Muslims, I didn’t feel superior to them because I came from a cultural Muslim background like some immigrants felt, but I didn’t always feel at ease with some of them.

Some were overtly political and would stage one-man demonstrations after the Friday khutba, most of the mosque would simply look on, I felt it was inappropriate since some mosques in California go out of their way not to even utter the term “Sunni” and “Shia” for the sake of maintaining community unity.

But what shocked me is that most African Americans would consider me “white” even though I feel the “War on Terror,” rumors of war with Iran and the immigration debate concerning Latinos makes me racialized as the ethnic “Other.”

The most famous “hedonistic” Iranians of Armenian ethnicity on American television right now are the Kardashians.

But Lailah, I’m not dissatisfied with Islam, I guess some Muslims I encounter make being Muslim a drag. But I won’t change my faith, I feel Islam is the Truth for me.

I am glad you are not dissatisfied with Islam. The Dalai Lama was asked by a path seeker, who was not Buddist, if she should change her religion to follow him, and he said no. I am always awed by his wisdom. Why would you change your religion? If there is one God and if all paths lead to that end, why change vehicles? At any rate African americans are unfortuante to be sure. They have been stereotyped to death, and whats worse is, they are responsible for much of their own bad press. While educated, thoughtful sophisticated African americans struggle to hold down the fight, there are those who I’d rather not say I associate with on any level. I am not a black person who will support what other blacks do because they are “black” and we have a “brotherhood” not at all. I feel that African americans, many who came to Islam via the Nation and through prison and the belief that Islam is our father religion, which I believe it is, are sadly as backward as any hooch swigging redneck from an Alabama pigstye. They think they are not, but they are. Blacks cannot see the racism in themselves. They refuse to address it, or accept it. I have to say though that many young African americans are even worse, they come from homes that have no education, parents who don’t care and live by street code rather than book learning. To say the majority of blacks are homophobic is an understatement. The problem is, they don’t know why. Christianity really never addressed homosexuality. It was in the Torah that this was addressed. To be fair living in Berkeley I have seen whites make more political statements and messes outside the mosque than blacks, but this is a different place. I think that you should not back yourself into a corner about this and step out of your experience and cleanse your mind. I find that I do not tolerate racist but I can certainly have a dialogue with them, but its time limited since i think racism is a choice after a time. If a person starts out talking about anything physical that can make a person feel superior or inferior then that’s racism. In this blog I have seen more “racist” seeming statements than a few. Do you think Gustavo that its okay to hate blacks because you met a “few” who said bad things to you, or do you think blacks should hate whites or anyone who looks white because of what was done to them for 600 years in this country. That every advantage that Latinos have here came on the backs of blacks who fought and died in the civil rights movement. There was no Latino civil rights movement, none. Yet they also think they are superior to blacks due to their skin color. Racism the middle east is no secret, Arabs practically destroyed African with Slavery. They traded slaves from one end of Africa to another, and though they converted them, freed them occasionally, they never liked or respected them. And hated the way they looked in comparison to their looks, “who told them they looked so nice?” I guess none of us can really openly critisize ourselves. So it comes down to racism is about “appearance” if a black person only changed their color and hair texture and remained the same person politically and religiously and socially, their lives would improve 100%. Gustavo it is easy to hear the racist tinge to your posts I am good at seeing it. Most people, especially muslims are fooled into thinking that by denying they are curing their racism into nonexistence. I will tell you that in many mosques black women refuse to marry men from any white muslim country. Why? Because they fear exploitation first, second they know that families, sisiters, mothers, aunts and uncles will make their lives miserable. I know sisters who will do anything to prevent a black woman from stepping over that line. I have heard horror stories of Indian men, Persian men, and Turkish men marrying black women and treating them horribly. These women come from these relationships bruised, emotionally broken and hating men. And worse questioning their own humanity and worth. The words of hate of black skin lips and hair erupt over a badly cooked meal or any little thing. I am sorry that anyone hurt you over your sexuality. But blacks I think see this as choice and I think that deep inside they have no respect for a person who makes a choice that places them into a place that blacks have been struggling to escape and that is minority status. There is a place on earth that we came from and we are the majority. Where we aren’t slaves desecendents, and our hair and nose and lips are not laughed at. I think you need to search your soul and think what came first your feeling of superiority acknowledged or not, and the fact that blacks did not think you so superior that they didn’t fade from ridiculing you even though it wasn’t and isn’t right. I bet you are a very nice guy, and sweet, and clearly very intelligent.
I think you need to learn more about the black experience because even though it isn’t taught properly in schools, it is an integral part of this nations fabric.

Lailah, have you had a chance to read “Living Islam Out Loud: American Muslim Women Speak” by Saleemah Abdul-Ghafur? She’s African American, and talks about her own unsuccessful marriage. Her essay is incredibly powerful, and the whole book is fantastic. She’s gone on to play a key role in some extremely important events, in my humble opinion, such as the Amina Waddud prayer in NYC. I’d be interested to hear your opinion on the movement for woman-led prayer.
I have an incredible affinity for the women of Islam, I’ve never come across so many incredibly strong-willed women in a single location. They stand out so much from so many of the men of Islam who seem only to go through the ritual motions without seeking to truly submit to God. I can’t tell you how much it irks me when a group of brothers tells me that they’re going to visit the sick because some ‘verified’ hadith says they will receive 40% more blessings for doing so! I would so much rather associate with the women, so often relegated to the basement of the masjid, and it drives me crazy that I can’t strike up a conversation with a sister at a religious function without causing a stir.

As for the above discussion of racism:
Gustavo, I think its important to realize that you were bullied by a bunch of jerks who just happened to be African American, rather than being bullied by a bunch of African Americans who were, therefore, jerks. And you probably were singled-out on account of your being a member of an even smaller minority group. Those who have been incessantly abused by society will often find an even weaker segment of that society upon whom to release their frustration. The fault is not with them or with you, it is with us; with America. We’ve put off fixing it for too long, and children are not as good as their parents when it comes to acting out the whole farce that America’s race issues were solved back in the 60s.

Finally:
I have to disagree with Lailah again when she says Christianity, to her knowledge, is the only religion which does not denigrate people according to their race.
I agree that it is not the intention of Christianity to do so, but, once again, Christianity is diverse and there’s a lot of negative in that diversity to go along with the positive. Apartheid in South Africa was supported by many Christian denominations, and let’s not forget slavery in the Americas. I would rather offer Buddhism as an exemplary religion in terms of its dealings with race, but that’s mainly because its newer to the Western scene and hasn’t yet been misinterpreted and corrupted by our societal ills.

Good night and God bless

The mistrust towards African American men still persists today even though I’m aware that my experience does not justify making stereotyping all African American men right.

Though my bias is situational. I feel at ease with Black Sub-Saharan African men, Afro-Latinos, and Caribbean English-speaking Black men.

I think it has something to do with culture.

Lailah mentioned that Blacks often bring about negative perceptions on themselves. I found that interesting coming from a Black woman.

My family has prospered in America, my first Muslim relatives came to America from Afghanistan in the 1950s. Afghanistan at the time was a monarchy with ties to the US due to its proximity to the “Evil Empire.” The US at the time had anti-Asian immigration laws which severely limited the number of immigrants from Afghanistan to 5,000 a year I believe, due to culture and American preferences, mainly men made the journey from Afghanistan to America. The next wave of immigrants from my Muslim family to come to America was due to the Soviet occupation and Islamic Revolution which unfolded in 1979.

I guess the gulf that divides immigrant Muslims from relating to African American Muslims could be cultural. Many immigrant Muslims, even if they are refugees like Afghans, have obtained home ownership, the second generation (the children of immigrants) obtain post-secondary degrees, and many Muslims become self-employed entrepreneurs or obtain professional/managerial positions. They face casual racism and often times are singled out for being “Moslem.” They undergo adversity yet though they strive to excel.

But having grown up in a working class community like Inglewood, my family would point out the differences either real or imagined about the work ethnic between different groups of people. I worked with Muslim employers who would not hire an African American unless they were Muslim, because they felt that they were prone to “complain and would slack on the job.” They found some were “too loud and boisterous in manner.”

One time, in middle school I was campaigning for a Latino politician seeking office on the Inglewood city council, his opponent, an African American used the “race card” to whip up fear of an “emerging Latino deluge and flood of immigrants” who “disenfranchised” Blacks in terms of housing and jobs.

In one of his pamphlets, he mentioned that Blacks in Inglewood were “renters” and Latinos were “homeowners.” I read an article about Latino immigration to Georgia, and in some small towns, Latinos are homeowners and own their own businesses, while many Blacks in these communities rent their homes and do not own their businesses. I find this interesting, how immigrants, even those who are not here legally, have managed to purchase homes and businesses with loans from various financial institutions. Some of these immigrants hold jobs that might pay less than the state-mandated minimum wage yet they seem to somehow realize the American dream of home ownership. And this goes back to the discussion of work ethic as it was presented to me by my family. This would be seen as proof between the differences between competing minority groups.

Some Muslims see conversion to Islam as a “civilizing mission” for certain groups of people. This is something that another contributor on this site made mention of.

For anyone to deny they are not in the slight bit racist, is a lie. We are all biased and influenced by racism to some extent. Furthermore, we are influenced by sexism and misogyny to some extent. I do not present myself to be a saint. However, I’m cognizant of my issues. Being aware of your flaws, is the first step towards self-improvement.

In the immigrant Muslim community, some communities have unfortunately adopted racism which is prevalent in America. Muslims, even if they resist “assimilation” into the “ways of the kafr” do so without being cognizant.

But going back to differences that divide Americans, I probably became cognizant of race by the age of 2 or 3. Some academics have talked of African American Vernacular English, what some dub “Ebonics.” The city of Oakland in the last decade attempted to make “Ebonics” recognized as a language distinct enough from standard American English to be qualified for “bilingual education” funds.

My first notion of race as a toddler was the awareness of African Americans in my community having a distinct way of speaking compared to non-African Americans, the texture of their hair, and the palms of their hands and feet being noticeably lighter than the rest of their body.

I have studied the black experience from the popularity of antebellum entertainment via black face minstrelsy to the stereotypes that to this day are prevalent in popular culture. Most commercial hip hop today shown on BET does not portray a flattering image of African Americans. Even Perry Taylor’s movies are filled with stereotypes, but if such films were say produced by Don Imus, the NAACP would be up in arms and protesting.

But my understanding of race varies depending upon the cultural context. In Latino communities, I don’t see a Latino of African ancestry as “Black,” I see them as a fellow Latino with shared cultural traits and a common history. When I encounter Black Arabs, I don’t see them as “Black,” I see them as ethnic Arabs. Arab like Latino, are ethnic designations, not racial ones anymore since the time of the Muslim conquests, the expansion of who consisted “Arab” has grown. One could argue that most North Africans are really Berbers who were culturally assimilated to Arab cultural norms and language.

When Barak Obama talked of race, his speech was limited, he dealt with only the classic Black-White dichotomy.

Latinos are not a race, Latinos have been in this country since the founding of St. Augustine in Florida. This colonial outpost pre-dates the founding of Jamestown in Virginia. In the US-Mexico War, 80,000 Mexicans lived in what would become the American Southwest from Tejas (Texas) to Alta California (California).

Latinos did have a civil rights movement, the movement was more regional, and had less of an impact on American history.

For example, the Chicano movement in the American Southwest was led by Mexican Americans. It was inspired by the Black-led Civil Rights Movement and rising black nationalism seen in groups like the NOI and Black Panthers. Similar movements occurred in the East Coast among Puerto Ricans.

Latinos have had civil rights organizations like LULAC which predate WWII which like the NAACP, fought to ensure that Mexican Americans were not excluded from legal and educational rights.

Ironically, because Mexicans like other Latinos are racially mixed, when it comes to the issue of race, at various periods in US history Mexican Americans have been deemed white.

In fact, Latino according the US Census Bureau is an ethnicity, meaning one can be “white” or “Black” depending upon how the census categorizes people. Ever noticed why some census forms have terms like “Non-Hispanic white” or “Non-Hispanic Black”?

I worked with Afghani’s when I first came to California and with other refugees. Believe me G, nobody thought much of your people where I worked. They saw them as pushy, arrogant and tribal given that they were asking for welfare; foodstamps and money from the county and state, they should have been more humble. You and your people irk me. I was at the masjid and an afghani sister came in and was sitting alone, one of the group of African american sisters I was with went to her and greeted her and we asked her to not sit alone but to sit near us. She came over reluctantly and then when the talk started she moved, and she never spoke to any of us again.
No, I am not letting you off easy about the immigrant stuff either. Afghani’s came here they recieived alot of government assistance and the first people they started to beat up on was blacks. They did n’t know anything about our culture and they wanted right away assert themselves “here” as superior. I recall sitting in an interview room with an afghani man who was a big fat slob and he sat there barely able to speak english, and managed to call me a “nigger” to which he laughed. I being a professional ignored him, as I said, we viewed your people as little less than tribal and ignorant at that. Their behavior was awful. I would go to work with a family and I would be offered soiled clothes and old jewelry as a “bribe” to get them more welfare money. I got tired of working with them because they were always trying to hustle the government to get more. I went into many Afghani homes and found them to be hospitable and very ingraciating but always on the take. To be honest G, Afghani people for most muslims are down low on the totem pole of folks they would want to deal with, live with, or associate with. I know Indians, Pakistani’s who tell me, never deal with an afghani because they are all “cheats and liars” well I was offended by that statement because I know the same words could be used against me and my people, but always I’m shocked by the level of ignorance that flows from that neck ofthe woods. Be it Afghan or Pakistan, the ignornace is appalling. My husband is Persian, and even during our courtship which was short he made comments about his racial background almost constantly and about being Aryan. I had to take him to school, even at the risk of loosing him. I told him that science doesn’t even support the idea of an Aryan race, and that here in America to speak of anything Aryan is to step into the realm of racism and white supremiscm. I think frankly this country made a hudge mistake allowing so many immigrants from your part of the woods into the country without educating them on the delicate racial balance here, and the history. G you know nothing about blacks, and I stand by what I said about Latinos. They had no civil rights movement, whatever they garnered came very late on the tail on what blacks forged. You have to give us that. I have no respect for Latinos who, in your face is all La Raza but on their birth certificates will say, “ White” I have no use for that. You see G, you are in the struggle or you are not. Either you come to America to be American and that doesn’t mean what you think, or not. Being American means to me that you are a person who has gone through the fire, the fight for equal rights for women, the fight for blacks to be free, to have rights, and for native americans. We fight for the environment, the right of unborns, the rights of animals, America is unique because no matter how bad you think it is, it isn’t because we try here to fix it. Your people, and the others, sit and talk about your racial superiority and your past as if God gave only your people something, no, even today speak of Afghanistan and nobody has any sympathy or cares for people who seem more prone to violence and women killing than any gangbanger in S. Central. And let me tell you, the history of your country is not hard to find.

Lailah,

I was born here, and I think you are putting words in my mouth now. I don’t identify with “La Raza” nor could I return to the Middle East and be seen as a “native son” there. I would be called an “Amriki” (American).

Afghans are different in the Bay Area, the Afghans I know here in Southern California are more affluent. My mother moved from Inglewood to Marina del Rey, and when you talk about misogyny, it is an unfortunate byproduct in numerous Muslim cultures. As for South Asians in the subcontinent having a disparaging view of Afghans, this form of tribalism is common throughout the region. Afghans are not the only ones guilty of exhibiting prejudice, tribalism, and arrogance. These traits are not confined to one group, but exhibited in all people regardless of heritage.

In my open and honest discussion with you about race, I never said I internalized the views that I found disagreeable in my family.

There are divisions between different minority groups. And yes, many immigrants like Afghans have been recipients of social welfare spending in this country. I do not deny that, I have encountered a number of arrogant Afghans who dismissed me because of my age, seeing that I had nothing of value to say. Trust me, even being part Afghan, I too have felt ostracized by my community.

No where in my posting did I say I was superior to you. No where in my posting did I even allude to such supremacism. In the Indo-Iranian countries, “Aryan” is often used or “Arya” in Farsi/Dari to refer to a real or imagined pre-Islamic heritage and culture that spanned from the Iranian plateau to the Ganges-Brahmaputra river basin. There was a recent Bollywood film called “Arya” which simply means “people.” Many ancient peoples referred to themselves as “The People/The Race.” I have noticed a number of businesses owned by Indo-Iranian peoples with the name “Arya” for dry cleaning or groceries. Westerners corrupted the original meaning of “Arya” by associating it and the ancient South Asian “swastika” with supposed European supremacism. The “swastika” is the second most sacred symbol in Hinduism after the “Ohm.” The “swastika” is also seen in Buddhism, often appearing in statues of the Buddha.

People here praise you Lailah, saying how wonderful your opinions are. But you are as biased in my opinion as me.

You make essentialistic statements that could be deemed “racist.” Even your postings have a racist tinge. I do not deny that my “communities” have issues, and often times have viewed African Americans in a disparaging manner.

However, Fashion Mujahid, an African American female too on this website is my friend. We have had some rather tense discussions on race and though I do not presume to understand her experience, I can acknowledge my privilege in Islam. A religion experienced by a follower is colored by the people he or she associate with. In the mosque, I’m male and being of a fair complexion with “ethnic features” I can easily be included in the “immigrant cliche” crowd. I’m taken more seriously though age sometimes can be a setback. I’ve noticed how sometimes Black converts are treated in a paternalistic and condescending manner.

But I am an American, when did I deny my nationality.

I am aware of the misogyny that can exist in Iranian and Afghan culture. My aunt was molested by her uncle, my mother was fondled by my grandfather, and my grandmother was rapped by a family friend and acquaintance. All these events occurred in America, was the sexual perpetrator brought to justice, sadly no. Instead, these “shameful” events were swept under the rug.

But no one in my family wears the hijab, no one in my family makes “namaz” (salaat), no one in my family actually reads the hand written Qur’ans they have in their living rooms, any religious articles in the home are merely cultural relics of the “Old Country.”

But Lailah, I do not think lowly of you because you are a Black woman. I love female supermodels, some of my favorite happen to be Black women from Somalia’s Iman, to Sudan’s Elek Wek, to Britain’s Naomi Campbell.

I think you are confusing me for my heritage, culture, and my family’s not so politically correct positions on issues of race and class.

Lailah stated,

“G you know nothing about blacks, and I stand by what I said about Latinos. They had no civil rights movement, whatever they garnered came very late on the tail on what blacks forged. You have to give us that. I have no respect for Latinos who, in your face is all La Raza but on their birth certificates will say, “ White” I have no use for that.”

It is true, that Latinos and other minority groups are greatly indebted to the Black Civil Rights movement, but to say we had no movement is a historical fallacy. Oftentimes, immigrants and refugees lack the knowledge to be grateful to their African American counterparts and for the part your community did for all Americans.

You have a valid point there, but your valid points are cancelled out with some problematic comments you make.

We can both learn from each other.

If you have come across with a negative impression of Muslim refugees, I have had mixed feelings about Somali refugees, some of the same undesirable traits you say Afghans possess, I see in some Somalis. However, I have met a number of wonderful Somalis, so I can’t totally write off this entire community.

But I will say this, it is nice to have an honest discussion with another Muslim. Oftentimes, Muslims will dismiss any discussion of “Race and Islam,” saying race is not recognized in Islam, therefore they choose not to engage in debate with you.

I think that as long as we trade insults we aren’t doing each other any good. If we want to learn, we can move this discussion up a notch. I have great respect for your intellect G and your ability to say the things you feel despite the backlash. I want you to heal from the hurt that was caused to you and for you to not forgive or love blacks but to make amends with God who we ultimately blame when our world or parts of his world hurt us. Path seekers like us are always talking, hashing it out and finding new and better ways to live and communicate. But also sometimes we get off the path and get side tracked into BS. Let me say that racism is BS. Let it be the litmus test for you of a persons character from now on. If a person begans to talk race and to say hurtful negative things, without it being germaine to the discussion, know they are off track. We are stewards of the planet, and brothers and sisters to each other, no matter where our ancestors came from. The more Hadiths I read the more respect I have for the prophet Mohammad, because he dealt day to day with this sort of stuff. We shouldn’t let racism stop us in our tracks, we should confront these people who are racist but confront them with knowledge and love. Listen, my mother (may she rest in Gods love) used to say some of the most racist things, and boy she had a tongue on her. But I had to learn to challenge her, to move past her experiences which forged her beliefs. I knew where her feelings came from, andwhy. So G ponder this, why would Afghani’s so many thousands of miles away from blacks have such hatred for them? Have you asked yourself where did this come from? Why would they set foot on our soil, and bring that stuff here? Don’t they know that the poorest black person is richer than the richest Afghani? Why? Because we don’t have to constantly approve ourselves that we are the best. WE are the most beautiful. I can tell you that black people are gentle and kind people, who are only forty years out of Jim Crow and segregation and not so many years from slavery so give us a break and consider that in that short time how far we’ve come. Black universities are all over the south and midwest. Did stupid unmotivated people do this? Blackwomen were forced to have babies by white men, who could and would stroll into the home of a slave couple, tell the husband to leave and have sex with his wife. A black man therefore had to live with a pregnant wife, and raise a half white child who came from rape. What do you think this did mentally to black men? If you say it wasn’t that frequent an occurence, try this on for size….there in not one African left in all of African america, our blood is so mixed with whites. We came these shores as Africans and now we are mixed race, all of us. So if you scratch the surface of a black person you have layers of anger, resentment boiling just beneath the surface that you can’t even begin to understand. And then you come along, probably nice looking, slender and proud of your ancestry and blacks can smell arrogance of race a mile away, and they have had enough experiences with immigrants like your parents to know that the word nigger is just on the back of the tongue. So we aren’t stupid, and we are lax. Immigrants do well in this country because they are “allowed” to. African americans have a brand on them, that says we are a product made in america. We get special treatment from banks, schools, and employers. Your people do not because their skin is white and because they loved Adolf Hitler…..........come on now..

If we start digging G, we’ll never get up from our knees right? Okay, so lets get on with life and love and being the type of muslim that would make the prophet proud. Salaam

Hitler made deals with some Muslim leaders during WWII, like the Grand Mufti of Jerusalem, and yes though anti-Semiticism is an issue in much of the Muslim world today, it has more to do with the unresolved political status of the Palestinian peoples.

Not all Afghans are “white” in skin color, even in the book and movie “The Kite Runner,” the Afghan American author makes mention of the sectarianism that ripes at the heart of Afghan unity. Afghanistan is not a homogeneous society, there are over 30 major ethnic groups, the largest being the Pushtun, Hazara, Uzbek, and Tajik. The Hazara and Uzbek look more “East Asian” and have often been discriminated because of their “non-Caucasian” features, whereas the Pushtun and Tajik are generally more “Caucasian” in appearance, but some people in my family are rather dark skinned. In Afghanistan, color consciousness is not as pronounced as it is when Afghans flee to Pakistan, then concepts of color consciousness become more apparent and prominent in the Afghan/Pathan communities

I have never known of an Afghan who expressed admiring opinions of Adolf Hitler though. But I have been aware that some Iranians have formed National Socialist (Nazism) organizations. However, the true extent of their popularity can be disputed. Such movements and their strength are fringe elements in Persian political discourse, however, Western forms of white supremacism have colored and shaped how some Iranians and Persians see themselves racially though. To me, in an Iranian and Persian context, “Aryan” is a benign word, however, I can understand how using the term in the United States or Europe is problematic. I never thought I traded insults with you. I never called you racist, I simply said some of your statements taken out of context could be construed as “racist.”

Some of your comments recently could be construed as “xenophobic,” however, I’m not calling you a xenophobe though. I refrain from making such a judgment call, I don’t know you in person, and how you come across online may be different in person.

I never stated African Americans lacked ambition and drive, but for me to deny that this is a sentiment not openly expressed in the Muslim American community by some Muslims would be false.

What I state is not politically correct, but does not the Qur’an mandate Truth, even if that means speaking out against your parent or tribe. Muslims will always come short of realizing the mandates of Islam, we are human and we have our weaknesses.

A renaissance in Islam can only be achieved not from the outside via the West, but by Muslims having oftentimes tense discussions on issues that divide us.

I have always managed NOT to incite controversy and notoriety, but my intention seems to fail.

G don’t be scared, you are fierce and I like you alot.
:-)
Salaam

G here is a conundrum for you.

I am reading a book called Liberating the Soul; A Guide for Spiritual Growth by Shaykh Nazim Adil al Haqqani

“One day a black fellow was walking with his boss in a garden..
Colored people, Allah gives them more barakah. We don’t have that
but to any house that a colored person is in Allah almighty sends so much
barakah. Therefore in earlier times everyone had colored people in their homes.
in their farms , and Allah sent more Barakah. The prophet said it, “we must like them!”

What the heck is this? We must like them. First all who is “we?” and second of all , its good to have one in your house? My God! This is what is wrong with Islam, this is what is taught from the highest scholars and most respected we can never hope to get our brothers and sisters out of the dark ages.

Astafurallah x 300000

Sadly, I’m not surprised by this comment. From the earliest period of Islam, Islam was racialized as being an “Arab” religion, and “Arabs” in medieval Arab manuscripts were deemed “white” while Europeans or “Franks” were deemed “red.”

Persians, have always had an interesting relationship with the racialization of Islam as being an “Arab” religion. They made Islam uniquely their own, much to the chagrin of Arabs, but Islam with Persian cultural contributions would be a radically different faith today.

Shukran G, as I thought. I spoke to my Imam and he tried to to make it sound as if the Shayhk’s twist on it is because of his country of origin, I said no, I am not buying it, so then he said he’d talk to the Shaykh about it. I have a feeling that this is not going to go away for me, I am not letting the shaykh do this to the hundreds of blacks that follow him, he owes us more honesty and to be a better informed religious leader.

<a href="kukumon.blogspot.com">it is kuku time!</a>

Wow…. what is this obsession with race?? In Islam Race is a non factor…. Never confuse oneself with what Muslim do and what Islam is.

But Guys practically speaking, Seriously don’t you guys see the bigger picture? In America it is quite simple, Racial tension is always needed to create a climate of haltered and prejudice. It is planned to be that way. Notice how Ncaap and La ra za are always control by rich white Jews folks? The black are being condition to remain the status quo… (maybe Good Oprah will be promoted… but Cosby is being too loud, but we got his son. )

It is really simple, when push come to shove and when the American Economy collapse… instead of blaming each other’s race being inferior and what not, You should always never forget to blame it on the JEWS!!!(the rich one not the poor Jews). Because only one Race really proclaim Racial superiority, the rest are cannon fodder.

PS:/ about those homo….. Jesus hated faggot too!