Time is up for these sickos.

I do not mean to offend with my comment, but I am reminded of something I once read in some Hadith.

One day, the Prophet Muhammad was severely tempted by a demon who took the form of a seductive woman.  He ran to find one of his wives, who was busy with her cleaning chores.  He had relations with her, and of course, the demon instantly vanished, since he was now satisfied.  For some reason, I always have an image in my mind of that wife on her hands and knees cleaning the floor, although the hadith does not mention what she was doing at the moment.  [MY ERROR, I see from the following links that she was tanning leather].

I will try to locate that hadith in google.

You will find an hadithic reference to this matter at the bottom of page 14 of this scholarly PDF document:

http://www.bu.edu/mille/publications/Confpro98/teipen.PDF

Then entire paper is a worthwhile read.

Here is a different version that I found:

http://www.islamtomorrow.com/hadeeth.htm

Muslim 540 The Prophet said that he saw a woman coming and going in the shape of a devil and she fascinated him. So he came to his wife, Zaynab as she was tanning leather and had sexual intercourse with her. That drove out what he felt in his heart.

One person may try to argue that a male is tempted by the female.  But one may also equally argue that males are tempted by hadith and tradition to lay blame upon the female.

This is a bit of a non sequitur:

I am often in Yahoo Religion chat.  Yesterday, a fellow stated that he was Muslim, but had begun to doubt that Islam is the "true faith."  I immediately asked him where he lives, and he answered "Yemen."  I advised him that possibly, in his country, if he apostacized from Islam, he might be severely punished by the authorities.   I suggested that he maintain the outward appearance of a Muslim, but, privately, read whatever spiritual or philosophical literature appealed to him, and cultivate his own private inner faith.  I asked why it is so important to publicly join some organized religion.  His responses to my suggestions indicated that he was not much into study or contemplation. I wondered privately whether he might be trolling or baiting people in some fashion. 

I was in a Yahoo Buddhist chat, and a man, age 33, stated that his father was a Protestant minister. This young man desired to become Buddhist, but was unsure how to break the news to his family.  I explained to him that if he were the best sort of Buddhist, he could be a Buddhist in secret, in his mind, even in the midst of his family’s church service. 

For the secular, scholarly person, most of the practices of all religions are a superstitious hocus pocus.   The very word hocus pocus is a corruption of the phrase in the Latin Mass "Hoc Est Corpus"  ("This is the body").  Medieval laity, ignorant of Latin, heard the phrase as hocus pocus, and thought it was some magic spell to change the bread and wine.

I suspect that people who are attracted to a "progressive" form of religion are in reality trying to free themselves from the thralldom of such hocus pocus.

Some practices are quaint and charming, and served some purpose in their day, centuries ago.

It is perfectly possible to be one thing in the eyes of society, but something very different in our secret thoughts.  Some may call this dishonesty or deception, but, in the case of the man in Yemen, it is a matter of self preservation, and in the case of the young Christian, it is a matter of compassion towards his family.

I’m glad you are mentioning this because I’m struggling right now with many angry thoughts regarding the lectures that we listen to at our masjid. I totally disagree with what is being taught, but want to be a part of a Muslim community.

In this case is it a matter of compassion to the many believers who are there and believe and respect this maulana? Apparently it seems I’m the only one with a problem. Others who have a problem simply avoid the place. I do so want to be connected and am at a loss as to what to do. I’ve been wanting to get others together and start a more progressive congregation…but it seems the numbers are just not here in my neck of the woods.

I’m not finding others like me and I am not a loner. I know I will do better in my deen if I have a supportive community around me. It seems to me you are telling me to suck it up and attend the masjid while maintaining my beliefs in secret?

Martin Luther didn’t practice in secret. He made a stand. Isn’t that what we should be doing? The man in Yemen might lose his life and I understand your advice. On the other hand what if there are others in Yemen he could connect to if he “came out” to someone. How do we connect instead of living these secret, desparate lives where we are afraid to reveal ourselves?

Laura

When I mention people cultivating a secret religious life, either to avoid execution, or to avoid disappointing their family, I certainly do not mean to suggest that people should be silent about what they see as wickedness wearing the sheep’s clothing of sharia and hadith. To intimate otherwise is to distort my words.

Suppose that the U.S.A. were suddenly to become an Islamic theocracy under Sharia law.  I now have the choice of living as a second class citizen, a kufar or kaphir. Or, I may choose to convert (or "revert" as some of you like to say), and adopt a Muslim name, and attend Masjid on Fridays, and fast Ramadan.  How many people in the world do you suppose there are at this moment who are outwardly Muslim, for the sake of safety or convenience, but inwardly hold some shirk belief, or perhaps are simply atheists or agnostics?

Martin Luther was a Roman Catholic Augustinian monk, who voluntarily took life-time vows of poverty, chastity and obedience.  Luther felt that he saw wickedness in the Roman Catholic Church, in the form of the sale of Indulgences which allegedly permitted people to sin and escape eternal punishment.  Martin Luther, in effect, became a "progressive Christian", in the sense that he "reformed" Christianity, thus setting in motion the "Protestant Reformation" (which is still in progress today).  Luther’s "reformation", in turn, inspired a "COUNTER-reformation" in the Roman Catholic Church, as an attempt to "clean up it’s act", and eliminate abuses such as the sale of indulgences.  Of course, in the process, Martin Luther conveniently decided that his life-time vows of chastity were null and void, and so he married a Catholic nun, who had made similar vows, and begat a number of children with her. Luther’s biographies clearly indicate that Luther had a problem dealing with his life of sexual abstinence.

Being a secret Christian or secret Buddhist or secret atheist, but maintaining the outer appearance of a practicing Muslim certainly does not prevent one from speaking out against injustice or wickedness.

On the other hand, questioning the ancient laws and cultural values of Islam is tantamount to taking steps towards an "Islamic Reformation" quite similar to the Protestant Reformation of Martin Luther.

I read over the article in the Arab newspaper, and noticed that these child molesters were not decapitated, or lashed, as I had expected, but were merely shuffled off to some other school.  I did notice that the newspaper reporter made efforts to discover that the victim’s mother had died, and in turn, published that fact in the article, without drawing any conclusion regarding the fact that she was motherless.  I can only assume that this is some cowardly way of insinuating that the molesters are in fact victims, and the child is to blame, since, if she still had a mother, then perhaps she would not have cooperated in the seduction.  It is my understanding of Sharia in the U.A.E. that, had the father pressed charges, then, his daughter, and perhaps his family, might have been punished in some fashion.

I noticed one small group of Muslims in the U.S.A. who formed their own movement to practice Qur’an based Islam, and totally ignore Hadith.  Of course, this is exactly what the Protestant Reformation did, in founding "Bible Based" churches, and rejecting Roman Catholic and Greek Orthodox tradition and interpretation.

I implore each of you to be honest with yourself. As the old saying goes, "you cannot have your cake and eat it too."  You cannot claim to be part of the integral Muslim Deen, and yet reject fundamental teachings and practices that date back to Mecca and Yatrib. [CORRECTION: I should say that you certainly CAN reject and rebel, but you will suffer discord, division, guilt, anger and alienation because of your rebellion and protest. The Sikh religion appears to me to be a reform movement of the 16th century, to discard from Islam what seemed undesirable, and to integrate into the religion what seemed desirable from other scriptures and practices. If you read the many essays of Thoreau, you will see the kind of progressive thinking which ultimately produced the Unitarian Universalist Church.  I foresee the day when there will be a "Universalist" form of Islam, but whether it will totally supplant and replace more traditional forms of Islam, or, what is more likely, simply vie and compete with older forms of Islam, remains to be seen.]

Some things are rather minor and petty, such as the question of whether, during Hajj, one should toss washed pebbles or unwashed, dirty pebbles at Shaitan.  (I am not joking, there is actually a fatwa to address this fine point.)   But it is quite another thing to eat port, or drink alcohol, or ignore Ramadan. 

Far be it from me to tell anyone what they should or should not do, as this is a matter of personal conscience, but to my secular, agnostic mind, when someone professes to be one thing, but then, complains about the requirements, and lobbies for a major re-write of the rules, well…. I would simply say that this is a "Submission" which is not very submissive.

I should emphasize that I am not, and have never been Muslim, but I have joined here and participated for the past year, so that I might overcome some of my own "issues" with Islam, and try to learn to be a better friend to those few secular Muslims who have elected to befriend me over the years.

Consider the Jewish concept of a quorum or minyan of 10 as a minimum number for congregational prayer.  What is stopping you from finding 5 or 10 like minded people, and meeting in someones home for prayers? You may pick and choose what you please from Islam, and practice that. You may slowly learn to read all of the readings in Arabic, or you may choose to be quite innovative and use only English.  If you were in Manhattan, you could rent a store front, and call it the "Submission Society", or whatever you please, and no one would blink an eye.  If you are in other locations, then you may be met with reprisals, or even physical violence.

A minyan is sort of a Jewish quorum. As ten of the tribes are lost, I don’t think that has anything to do with it. As long as there are ten Jewish men (in Conservative and Reform Jewish movements, it’s simply ten Jewish adults of either gender), you have a minyan, and just as with a quorum in a secular organization, you can do what you need to do with the idea that there is adequate "representation" of the group. Some scholars relate it to the ten brothers of Joseph; it’s also mentioned in the Book of Ruth.

Stop and consider that, when you took Shahada, you only committed yourself to the statement that "There is no God but Allah, and Muhammad is His Prophet."  ( and if you are Shia, then you tacked something on about Ali being the Caliph).  But you never said a word about prevailing practice in Masjid being the only valid practice, nor I believe did you promise anything about Masjid attendance.

During the decades of atheism in the former Soviet Union, Muslims went underground. They have no ordained Priesthood, or sacred place of celebration.  Anyone could be a crypto Muslim, in their homes, and simply pray and fast in secret.  Muslims under Communist oppression had it far easier than the Russian Orthodox, who required and ordain priest, and various approved paraphenalia such as the antimensa cloth, with the relic of a martyr sewn inside, in order to celebrate their eucharistic mystery.

Well, I think you misunderstand me when you say I distort your words, like I did it on purpose or something. It was not. Like you I’m just trying to understand what you were saying and exploring the possibilities.

Anyway, let me tell you about the lecture, and I don’t think this was the Prophets’ (pbuh) belief. The lecture was how it was natural and good to discriminate against people. He basically insulted people who were educated by insinuating that too much “o that thar book learnin” made them question too much and to ignore their faith. That if someone came over to your house who was a an Engineer, a Muslim, and offered to shake your wife’s hand when he came over that you shouldn’t respect him because he dishonored you. And this also makes him like a non-Muslim. When I first became a Muslim this kind of lecture would never have been given in the masjid.

As far as some of your other comments they are quite contradictory about “rewriting the rules”. All submitting is to God and not to man. I’m not sure if you are sincere or not in what you have written. If you are not Muslim, I find it odd that you judge someone on whether or not they drink alcohol or eat pork. I personally do not, but there are esoteric interpretations of the Quran which do not abide by the literal. Why do you care if they do? Is avoiding pork the true essence of Islam?

It seems that you do not respect the Progressives when you say “complaining about requirements….etc” Are you here to turn people away from Islam? I assure you that believing in a caliphate is not universal amongst Muslims. (speaking of secret beliefs). No one should be a second class citizen.

It’s easy to see how he could get away with it. Priests have been doing it for years in the U.S. They don’t even have the excuse of all these hadeeths. Are we going to condemn now all of Christianity because of the evil some men have done? These hadeeths weren’t truly around during the time of the Mohammed (pbuh). The were written some hundreds of years later and while the scholar who collected them had a system it was by no means a perfect system. They are contradictory to the Quran. Therefore they shouldn’t be accepted.

The people who quote those sorts of hadeeth in support of molestation are depolorable and evil or maybe they are just ignorant. It is unfortunate they claim to do it in the name of Islam.

All I know is that I walked out towards the end of the lecture. Some people understood why. Maybe it is enough for me to stay when I think its valid and leave when I do not. Maybe there will be someone there who “gets” me.
If the Catholic church can remake itself more than once so can Islam.

Laura

Wow you added a lot to your blog since I replied. Interesting.

Laura

An acquaintance from Yemen once explained to me:  "You can get alcoholic beverages in the black market in Yemen, but there is ONE THING that you cannot get in Yemen for ANY AMOUNT OF MONEY, and that is PORK." 

Salman Rusdie dramatizes the moment of his apostasy from Islam, as an adolescent, by his act of going to the cafeteria and purchasing and consuming a rather tasteless ham sandwich.

Where does one draw the line? 

The answer is that each person decides where to draw the line.

Anyone is free to forge or craft a form of Islam which allows pork and wine, and abandons the practice of male circumcision as unimportant, and changes the main day of worship from Friday to Sunday, and female Imams, and same sex marriages, and wearing of shoes in the Masjid, and dispensing with wudu ablution, and shortening the period of Ramadan, and doing Qiblah to the North or the West, etc. etc. etc.

I am not your enemy.  I came here one year ago, to find for myself some way to relate to Islam which cordial and constructive.

My two best Internet friends of several years, one in Lahore and one in Tehran, both agree that I have managed to become more humane and compassionate towards their cultural heritage because of my participation here.

You can read all of my posts here, for the past year, and judge for yourself what I am and what my agenda is.

You cannot know that one day my reading and acquaintances and experiences will not suddenly inspire me to become a Muslim.

You cannot say that nothing I have posted here has not in some fashion helped some Muslim to become a better Muslim, by motivating them to further, deeper inquiry.

You know, IF I were to come here and state that I am a Muslim, then, I imagine I could post all sorts of outrageous and inflammatory things, and I would be more cordially received than I am as a scholarly non-Muslim, posting and questioning in civil and open-minded fashion, without insults, threats or profanity.

I was first attracted to come here because of the brilliant insights of Zeeshan Hasan, who is innovative in his attempt to see a form of non-violence in the Qur’anic response of Abel to Cain.

People are not your enemies simply because they do not see eye-to-eye with you in total agreement.

My sincere apologies if I have distressed anyone by my observation.

Believe me, nothing could be dearer to my heart than the goal of a totally revised and reformed Islam, which embraces the essence of everything that is good, and rejects all that is counter-productive.

Progressive Islam may view me as an enemy, but I certainly see Progressive Islam as a friend.

Sitaram,

Perhaps I’m missing some element of the comments above, but why do you think Progressive Islam views you as an enemy? Personally, I see anyone, of any faith or creed, who is willing to engage in thoughtful and civil discourse as a friend…

Sohail, you tell me. Here is what DA posted today:

On December 15th, 2007 DA says:

Well, Sit, I don’t know about blasphemous but you certainly are fucking redundant (and boring). You know, you remind me a lot of the evangelical assholes that I’m sure you consider below you on the enlightenment o’meter. I get it, Islam is stoopid and the Dharmic faiths of India are fannnnnntastic. Whoo. Yeah, nothing bad ever happened in Sanskrit or Pali and what’s a little Sati, imperialism, and mass murder between friends? I dunno, is writing polysyllabic versions of "your religion sucks" all day on a website (ostensibly) dedicated to that religion great fun or something? I can be a short tempered prick but I can’t see, for the life of me, myself going to a Buddhist website to nitpick constantly. Look, the karmic wheel keeps on turning and so in some future age everyone will be as enlightened and objective as you; maybe we’re just not ready to be honest enough with ourselves yet. So how about you wait until I run into you in the form of a clam, you’ll be a pelican, and you can eat me.

And here is what Sahira2001 posted:

As far as some of your other comments they are quite contradictory about “rewriting the rules”. All submitting is to God and not to man. I’m not sure if you are sincere or not in what you have written. If you are not Muslim, I find it odd that you judge someone on whether or not they drink alcohol or eat pork. I personally do not, but there are esoteric interpretations of the Quran which do not abide by the literal. Why do you care if they do? Is avoiding pork the true essence of Islam?

It seems that you do not respect the Progressives when you say “complaining about requirements….etc” Are you here to turn people away from Islam? I assure you that believing in a caliphate is not universal amongst Muslims. (speaking of secret beliefs). No one should be a second class citizen.