I absolutely agree that it’s always spectacular, shocking events that draw attention, rather than festering violence in poor areas. And, you know, I agree that that’s, uhh, bad.

But, I guess I bristle at the implication that the kids who died at Virginia Tech were necessarily 1) white, and 2) privileged. The former is certainly not true, and as for the latter, Tech is a state school. Public universities still overwhelmingly tilts in favor of the reasonably well off, but it strikes me as reductive and distasteful to lump them into an all-covering (and frankly somewhat essentialist) category called ‘privileged’.  I even bristle at the idea that their assumed privilege – as opposed to the sensational, spectacular nature of the thing, for instance – is what drew all that attention.

As for military deaths – the difference, I guess, is that you can mourn for the victims of a shooting like this without seeming like an apologist for the war. It’s sad that we’ve come to that, though

Honestly, I really took you for a bit better observer of the human condition.

Callous is just the tip of the iceberg of what this is.

Of course the deaths in Iraq, and many other places are horrible, horrendous daily things. But the shock over this isn’t about “privileged white people” and I really find it disgusting you would say so, it’s about something a lot more basic than that.

People have, as you said, gotten used to death in Iraq. They’ve gotten used to death in inner city areas. They’ve gotten used to death in the Sudan. This is part of the human condition, and there will be death and there will be dying an not many people can sustain a constant level of outrage or horror.

This is about the shock of one of the safe places being broken. This is about the reaction to young people who are not in a place where death is so frequent dying so brutally and violently. And maybe in other areas of the world this is not so infrequent, but here it is, and we are not quite one giant global culture yet – people will care most about what is closest to them.

It’s great to be against war, I certainly am, but I still realize that is part of our communal human history, we are used to it. We can accept casualties in war because we know that soldiers will die, because they are soldiers. People delineate these areas of safe and not-safe, people who may die and people who are safe – and, unfortunately, they need it. Because people still must pay their bills and go to work. Feed themselves and their kids. Human history will never have a lack of death and destruction, but life has to always continue on as well.

Kids in college are not soldiers. You can make of that whatever you may want, but the fact remains they are not. Death doesn’t come in such an aberrant way that often, and it will shock and horrify people.

And yes, it is hypocritical, and lives are lives – but this isn’t about class or race, this is about people dying when we didn’t expect it, and our culture is going to react – and of course, the media makes it hard to see anything properly.

I think it is perfectly alright to ask “why aren’t people more outraged about Iraq?” But the fact people are caring at ALL is a good thing, and the fact that apathy hasn’t completely taken over is a good thing.

Honestly, you should know better.

I’m classified into the white race but i look at my skin and i see colors—warm peach tone, blue veins visible from underneath, brown freckles, as subtle as any skin lighter or darker. My self as subtle as any other.

I am poor not priveledged—hovelized by a system that keeps the poor in their place with a scizzors. So if the blacks blame it on the whites and the whites keep clinging to their habitual hatin’  then the eelites will laugh as they put us out into separate pastures and then off to the same damn butcher the next day. They keep us divided and conquered and they rob themselves  of a good life in the meantime, because how can you lay your castle over the top of another womansmans house and call this good? . this infant new world civ makes no sense and is unhappy based on slavin’ robbing and bubbloid distractions.This way of living will fall and no one will  have to lift a finger to help it on its way—they are running out of the crap that makes the crap. They’ve powdered and drunk all the dinosaur bones . They’ve passed out in the corner—blood level’s risng too fast, cant be slowed nor turned back down. The "paradigm" will shit then shift.

It’s sad that it is so hard to have joyful lives here, lets help each other, Od sees all of our faces and is in all of our eyes.

I’m working with some folks at my college to see if we can create scholarships for local kids who went to Iraq.  I live in Eastern upstate New York where poverty is something unlike I have ever experienced in urban settings.  Even in urban poverty there is some cosmopolitanism.  But up here, in these small, dying factory towns people are so deeply isolated.  The kids here have nothing but the military.  Some are just leaving for the war, others are coming home.  Often in pieces.  God willing we can find a way to bring some of them to college at Skidmore.  Give them something for what they have had to endure. 

All of us should be doing whatever we can do for whoever we can.  Each of us has some genius, some opportunity.  No one can do all things.  But if we have some opportunity to help anyone, we should.  Do whatever God opens up before us.  If all of us do something, we can cover a lot of ground.

I think that is great Laury.

Laury is correct, urban poverty has more resources.  Homelessness is increasing in this country, but suburban poverty has few resources which are traditionally located in urban centers, especially in downtown areas.  Rural poverty, which affects mostly Euro-Americans, is largely not addressed at all.  Many Eastern seaboard colleges and universities have affirmative action programs for Appalachian whites, which I think is wonderful.

A college degree does open opportunities, it opens doors to interviews and people look favorably upon college graduates in the workplace.

Attending college does extend privilege in this society.

I am privileged, UCLA now gets 51,000 applications, more than any other college in the United States.  Yet the number of seats available at UCLA remains the same, meaning getting into this university becomes increasingly more competitive as the applicant pool increases each year.  UCLA is barred from using affirmative action in admissions, so the university uses a holistic approach to evaluate students beyond standardized test scores and grades earned in high school.

Colleges have issues with mental illness, the American Psychiatric Association states that one in two college students in America suffers from depression at least once in their undergraduate years.

Mental illness, suicide, drug abuse and alcohol abuse, hazing, campus rape and other sexual crimes are all too common.

When I attended UCLA, there was a serial rapist who molested women usually late in the evenings and when alone, normally in bathroom stalls.

Universities and ivory towers do have their fair share of crime, they are not entirely safe

I for one do not work at a university, but I do talk to younger people in their early twenties about college and career options.  I do some volunteer work with non-Muslim specific charities, that address issues in my community.

Being Muslim does not mean joining a tribe called Islam, I can’t stand most Muslims I encounter in America, my bonds with other Muslims is based less on religious affiliation and more on a shared worldview and common culture.  That culture need not be Indo-Iranian, but focused on affecting change locally in this country and within one’s community.

I was crucial in keeping my one sister in college, she almost withdrew to join the Army.  My mother went ballistic, I was the calm one who gently persuaded her to other career options.  She took academic leave from Long Beach State to join the Police Academy, now she is a law enforcement agent working in a women’s prison in Lynwood, CA and plans to return to school this coming Fall semester.

Yes, some Muslims don’t object to their womenfolk joining law enforcement or the military.

But yes, we have some degree of privilege, and we have a social responsibility as Muslims to extend this privilege to others.  That means not simply helping other Muslims, but non-Muslims as well.  What better way to combat Islamophobia than claiming a stake in your community.

Gideon,

I’m no bitter observer of the human condition.  However, I would be classified as "white" by default since Latino is treated as ethnicity and my family comes from a part of Asia where people are classified as "Indo-European" and therefore, lumped into the social construction of whiteness.

Universities are presumed to be safe havens, free of the violence that plagues other horrific regions of the world.  However, universities are homes to mental illness and those who cannot cope with reality outside the ivory tower.  I attended UCLA, a state university in California where the average household income exceeded that of USC, the private expensive school in Downtown Los Angeles.

I have seen the results and consequences firsthand of domestic violence in the inner city, I am no privileged Muslim campus elite who can cry and rally for "Free Palestine" and then demean the nation where I was born and raised.  My family came to this country when there were still anti-Asian immigration laws on the book, when an Afghan man would be classified as "Black" in the South since white Southerners could not think outside the White-Black racial dichotomy of this country.

My family did not save for college, like many students, I’m in debt and the interest (profit) the banks are making off of me is growing.  As a Muslim, I engage in usury (a sin that should certainly damn me to the Hellfire).

What you consider bitterness I consider honesty.

I’m Shia afterall, I was raised in a bellicose Muslim culture where extreme emotions are openly expressed.  But I was also raised in the West, where I was taught to challenge authority, including the Muslim authorities in the mosque who still uphold Arab and South Asian culture as the model for "Islamic ways of life."

I am now a lower middle class "white" American, largely ignorant of Farsi and more confident in my Arabic language skills.  However, I will not forget where I came from and my experiences.  I know America may not be perfect, but I served my country as countless other Muslims have for the sake of this nation.  Honesty can be cruel and hard to swallow, but we need not forget the deaths of other young Americans.

I think you assume too much.. I’m not launching any accusations of you regarding any form of elitism, I’m a "in debt up to my ears" college student as well – and I understand how that goes.  And you’re right – mental illness is incredibly prevalent.

I’m just saying that people are reacting to this situation like people do, and it is not fair to judge their compassion.  Or fear.  Or anger.    It’s not about privileged white people, its about a place people have in their minds as safe, and then something shattering that illusion.  Essentially, I don’t feel this has anything to do with race/class so much as a glimpse into the chaos of what life really is and a culture recoiling at it.  Everything else that proves this so readily to people has been rationalized away, and we are left here with something that cannot be rationalized.

It was late, and I did word things strongly however and I’m sorry.

Ginan Rauf

One needs to bear in mind that increasingly the victims of war are civilians. It is very much about being
in the wrong place at the wrong time. for people caught in war torn zones entire neighborhoods, countries
or cities can be the wrong time. There seems to be an underlying and one might say unquestioned
assumption that some places just don’t have a right to be safe.

Yes, there is an element of privilege here. But it’s not always just about white privilege but class privilege
that is transnational. Virginia tech is a diverse place, with many privileged kids who are also members of
minorities. Gustavo is right to ask why the lives of poor white kids don’t get mourned and covered by the
mainstream media. Have their lives not been cut short? Do they not have dreams, narratives, friends, families?
Are there no funerals that can be attended by officials? No vigils? can we imagine Cindy Sheehan being interviewed on CNN and telling us about how Casey’s death shattered her family, his dreams? the question
is not simply about not being allowed to mourn but how and whose mourning gets represented and validated
by the media. Why is the anguish and suffering of the poor so invisible? How can we represent the suffering of
the poor without denigrating the suffering of the privileged? Perhaps as a country we need to ask ourselves
how we can be re-sensitized to suffering and the long-term consequences of violence. That too has become
invisible. Perhaps if media outlets actually followed the trauma of the wounded we wouldn’t be so happy to go
to war and kick ass. I find it ironic how all the pundits are now speculating on how video games de-sensitizes
young kids to violence. Perhaps it’s easier than asking how as adults we have all become so densensitized to
the ravages of war and gun violence. If one good thing can come out of this abominable violence and frightful
massacre, then, maybe it is that America can collectively view the prolonged grief, anguish and suffering that
violence leaves in its aftermath.

I assume too much Gideon, I would kindly disagree.

I’m not offended by your comments.  I like debate.

I think it is fair to say that all of us regulars on here are fairly privileged at least in terms of class.

Even for me, a man in debt, I live the typical American middle class lifestyle.  I have certain standards of living that I would not possibly compromise.  I don’t have a motor vehicle, I use public transit which does save me money, but besides lacking a car, I’m fairly typical.

At the moment, I have only an undergraduate degree but I’m waiting for a letter of acceptance this coming June to begin nursing school.  I know that most Americans have certain myths about college, college is deemed a right of passage for the middle class.  High school does not end one’s formal education, some form of college is also deemed mandatory.  Though the twentieth century allowed many in the middle class to gain access to college, college is still available to those with the necessary resources.  However, college should not be the determining criteria for who should be mourned and who should not.

Though most privileged Americans fall under the census bureau catergory of "non-Hispanic White," most people living in poverty in America are white also.  Most welfare recipients are white, not ethnic and racial minorities.

I joined the military because I was discouraged about my employment prospects in Los Angeles even with a college degree.  I was terminated from a law firm in West Los Angeles, I found no comfort in a managerial position at a coffeehouse, and I even pursued culinary school but realized commercial kitchens were not for me.  I got a position at a real estate firm in Beverly Hills, but when I found out the position would be unpaid, I simply stopped going in.  I noticed a recruitment center near my apartment and went in.

Many people join not with patriotism in mind or killing some "sand nigger Muhammadans."  I made known my religious identity and even disclosed my sexual orientation to my recruiters, but this information was not passed on to their chain of command.

I used to be a campus liberal, I used to have far more extreme positions on Israel, etc.  Now, with my military experience, I’m actually moved by the story or orbituary concerning a dead soldier or Marine.  I would say I’m more patriotic.

College and military experience were two polar opposites for me, but I learned from both settings. 

Not everyone in the military is poor, a number of middle class children and an increasing number of college drop-outs join the military.  In my command, there were a number of enlisted sailors with college credits under the belt prior to the Navy.  And I was not the only enlisted sailor in my command with a college degree on my resume, I didn’t go commissioned officer, being an officer in the Navy would have been stressful and a terrible bore for me.

I have mixed feelings about the military.  It was a weird and at times surreal experience. 

But I think the media also plays a role in what our national dialogue consists of.  I think this tragedy brings about a whole array of issues, and some issues prospective students may never even imagine in their search for the perfect university.

its so difficult to put in words—-i’d rather be poor than privledged but it would be nice if being poor could include a home and enough good food for me corporeal to jump around on—a little space to do my work, for singing and dancing including the smells of good cooking food. I don’t want to sell my life into some unatural submission to robotized bosses, clocktimeschedules, paper they offer as proof and life of sitcomspoofs…what i’m good at doesn’t sell, i might make a living with some of my talents if there werent so many regulations and rules of the priveledged elites holding me down. they want us down so they can stay up and they make believe it’s moral , they can’t even pass on their trash—-the boarded up houses are hoarded, empty and degraded; most of the grocery dumpsters in my town are chained or of the trash compacting type, stupid rules prohibit restuarants from distributting what doesn’t sell at the end of the meal time, tell me how is it that we live in a world like this?

I’m sorry  the naive soldiers  suffer and die to fight for the terratorial pissings of the ruling struting bulls, the naive soldiers of both "sides"

I’m sorry  the mother’s and father’s  are crushed by the suffering of their civilian and soldier children.

I’m  sorry the children die and suffer in the childish rants and waverings of the power trippers on the topheap

Does Allah want us to give in to this?

Does Allah like homelesness and nuclear waste?

Does the Earth like it when we milk her dry of her oozy black juice?

Does Allah love  Earth?

Are not mujahideen naive in their fight to promote one version of Islam, often at odds with even the majority of Muslims?

stanley g

you are right.  please see my blog and respond.  we as muslims need to toake back our religion from the tyrants and hypoctites

stanley g

obviously. we have something very perverse going on in iraq.  muslims are killing eachother, desecrating mosques, etc. this speaks not as much to any struggle so much as it speaks to the vile ability of those in leadership positions to bend truths to meet their personal agenda.  as for the tragedy at vt,  if you all watched this guy’s rants like i did, he was stone cold crazy.  when dealing with a lunatic, who can predict the outcome.  there is no point in taking his rants of classism seriously, although for dialouge purposes, we can always discuss the definite issues with class that ou society has. 

Most recent school shootings in America involve people who were picked on, people who felt that they did not receive validation, and therefore, they strike back in the most dramatic fashion.

However, such cases are few in numbers.

Iraq on the other hand makes Muslims look bad period!

We have Muslims who condone honor killings and morality murder.  Morality murder in Iran allows a Muslim to kill another Muslim if he or she feels the person is morally corrupt, and the shariah there will look the other way, rather than convict the person of murder, they will be granted immunity from any or all forms of punitive or rehabilitative punishment.

In a recent case in Iran, the morality murder of a Muslim couple has brought about controversy and many Iranians are starting to question the religious judicial system there.  Iran, like most countries that exercise shariah have two parallel legal systems, one that deals with non-religious/ordinary affairs and another that deals with the Muslim community and their issues specifically.  However, a lower appellate court may force the entire Iranian supreme court justices to look at the case and either to uphold the conviction of the men in three lower courts or keep the earlier supreme court ruling.  Iran has 50 supreme court justices, Iranian institutions are sophisticated and in Iranian shariah, we have balances and checks, and clerics will and have folded to popular dissent.  I have faith if Iran is left alone by the West, Iran will emerge as a healthy democracy in the near future.  I think Iran will go the "China route" but Iran is not entirely "evil" as some in the Bush administration would like us to believe.

To Noor, since you are so enlightened, many people of color and those who are economically disadvantaged join the military because it was one means of achieving the middle class lifestyle, rather than interest-ladden debt via college these men and women may have to commit their life on the line.

When I pledged my oath to defend the Constitution, I was basically signing my death certificate. 

I have family in Iran still, knowing that at any time this administration may pre-emptively attack Iran, a nation who has a strong sense of national identity and whose population is larger than Iraq and Afghanistan combined.  However, war with Iran would be considered a "hard attack" because I highly doubt Iranians would engage in killing one another like we see in Iraq.  Iran would have no Taliban to thwart the efforts of the government in national resistance that we see in Afghanistan.

US limitations to power have been exposed.  The Bush legacy in the meantime is tarnished, his legacy depends on the final outcome in Iraq.

It would be one thing of mujahideen in Iraq only attacked uniformed servicemen and legitimate military targets.  However, they target civilians and desecrate mosques, houses of worship to the One True God they espouse to fight in the name of.

To me that is naive and totally unacceptable!

Gustavo

I am sorry it took me so long to answer your response.  I once had a response typed and ready to post when something went wrong on the computer and stopped me, then I had sudden changes in my personal life, plus I  felt concerned about  comming into controversy so soon on this good site—i felt i’d clumbered into the room leaking from the mouth without some time to get to know  my surroundings and the people here—I’m not withdrawing what I said though, i have to ask hard questions and I believe many soldiers are naive in their choice to enter the military(in my opinion they all must be naive but that doesn’t mean morally corrupt)  I agree it’s awful beyond words that the mujahideen target civillians and desecrate mosques, that may be closer to willful ignorance on the part of those old men running the show. It seems to be the way it goes in this power oriented pyramid shaped paradigm worldly powersvyars( whatever nation/statereligionname they have)  proceed from, the few on top are good at  gettin us people wherever we are to disrespect, despise and/or kill one and other.  Why is that so easy for them? 

Noor

Gustavo,

 I’m sorry too, that you have to worry about the nation you live in going to war with a nation where you have relatives. I hope the US doesn’t attack Iran.

Noor

I don’t think the US would consider or entertain the possibility of war with Iran, Iran is not Iraq or Afghanistan, multi-ethnic states with tensions between rivaling groups.

Iranians though diverse, are more fiercely nationalistic and their population and geography would prove challenging to the US.  We don’t have enough troops to occupy Teheran, Tabriz, Isfahan, Mashad, and other Iranian cities.

But the fact that Muslims are willing to desecrate mosques, kill fellow Muslims during Ramadan and a funeral, I don’t see how they can see their acts as divinely justified.

I was reading from a Muslim once, that Muslims prior to 2003 had a double standard about suicide bombings, when they afflicted Israeli civilians it was deemed justified even if it went contrary to Islamic law, but now that most suicide bombing victims are Muslims in Iraq and Afghanistan, what can we Muslims do?

Hate will eventually destroy a people.  People judge a faith not by its ideas but by the people who practice the faith, and that means that the violent vocal minority will taint the image of Islam to a Western audience already weary of us.