OmarG, I thought you were doing Islamic studies at a university in Arizona (?). If you are, how do you maintain that there can be one, unified way to pray or perform other acts of worship? Anyone who reads the relevant chapters of hadith books or (better still) early fiqh works knows that the texts do not speak with one voice (hence, the differences among juridical schools on prayer, etc.).

And anyone who reads these texts with a historical-critical eye also can see that there is an evolving discourse on how to pray (for example), that is in part motivated by the belief that the community should be unified when performing such a central ritual. The idea that the Prophet prayed a certain way, and we can minutely reconstruct how he did it by looking at hadiths is a faith statement, but it is not historically defensible.

I don’t quite understand the animus against those who hold their hands at their sides (Malikis, Twelver Shi’is). I think it’s great that eventually the 4 surviving Sunni legal schools were able to be tolerant enough to accept one another’s prayers as equally “orthodox,” no matter how one holds one’s hands. If only such tolerance had continued.

Following up on the previous point, I would suggest taking a look at Johansen’s work “Contingency in a Sacred Law” (I think that is the title). The book includes several of his major articles. It is his introduction, however, that is really very important, at least on this point. He makes clear that for Sunni Islam, “unity” was creedal and not juristic, even in matters dealing with ritual. Sunni jurisprudence eventually settled on a rule of mutual recognition to deal with sometimes fundamental differences regarding how prayer is to be performed: so long as the imam believed the prayer was valid, it was also valid for those following him, even if they would have prayed differently.

One small point on the hands issue: Ibn al-Qasim reported in the Mudawwana that Malik had no experience with “qabd” in the required prayers, but that in Malik’s view, there was “no problem with it” in nawafil. If Ibn al-Qasim is to be believed (and I don’t know why we would doubt him on such a point), Malik is making the claim that qabd simply was unknown in Madina as part of the daily prayers . . . Things like how we stand in prayer, etc., are quintessentially things that Malik believed should be established by the ‘amal of the community which, by definition, was transmitted on a much more widespread basis than individual hadiths, and accordingly, when the two contradict, ‘amal takes priority. Another example of this is the Maliki adhan, which only does “allahu akbar” twice at the beginning and once at the end, in contrast to the other madhhabs, which have four and two. Again, this is bsaed on ‘amal, on the theory that the adhan occurred five times a day in Madina from the time the Prophet (S) arrived in Madina, so it would be very difficult to believe that the people of Madina would have gotten it wrong, but the people in Iraq, based on isolated transmissions, would have gotten it right. In any case, the point is simple: to the extent “unity” is fundamental, historically that has been the function of theology, and not fiqh.

Mohammad

Hey, I am Maliki and I do not hold my hands at the side. Ya can do, but you don’t have to. I don’t think that was his point anyway. I think he thinks Progressive Islam will make its biggest impact by being a true ijma upholding the diverse intellectual traditions in Islam, including Salafism. I’m inclined to agree. I am also inclined to say that ijma does not mean going without calling each other to task intellectually and morally.

Hold on Fadel, what support can you claim for a unified theology? If you say “God is one,” then do you mean unified in the general claim of that statement? Scholars have spilled a lot of ink disagreeing with each other about what that means in its particulars. So seriously, what is the unified position that we all adhere to without which we would not be Muslim? And if you have an answer to that, whose answer is it? And who historically has disagreed?

No, no. My whole point is that a Salafist-style orientation is perfectly appropriate because we have no need for a seperate “Islamic” jurisprudence in the West. We already have a legal system and all that traditionalism and fiqh stuff is largely mislocated in our communities. We need that Salafist orientation to get past that break on development and go back directly to the texts. But, progressive Islam will differ from the current incarnation of Salafabism by also being rooted in our current cultures. Otherwise, we will always be alien and will handily repell the larger numbers of converts that historically have guaranteed the existance of new Muslim communities.

- A Salafi in worship, a Sufi in society, a Secularist in government.

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Omar G, it seems to me that you are advocating the sort of Salafist orientation meant by thinkers such as Muhammad ‘Abduh; back to the texts in order to arrive at a more liberal approach to Islam which would be true to its “spirit” yet also in tune with modernity (???).

OK, we all know how that ended up; with a Salafi movement which became very influenced by Wahhabi discourse, so that nowadays “Salafi” generally means highly conservative about most social issues.

I suspect that this occurred partially because it really isn’t possible to ever “go back directly to the texts.” There is an almost unimaginable chasm of time, space, mentality, political realities… between the first/seventh century and us. No quranic verse or hadith, no matter how apparently “straightforward,” can be read by us, much less put into practice without an incredibly complex process of interpretation.

Even our ability to read these texts at all depends on the centuries of Arabic linguistic scholarship which has produced all of these multi-volume dictionaries which no one who reads classical Muslim texts can do without. Without these, we don’t know what the words mean; but are these meanings ever free of interpretation? (especially highly contested words such as “qawwamun” or “khimar”...)

Without having some sort of a historical/religious context in which to put these texts we read, they wouldn’t make sense to us at all. But this context we think we know originates itself in many processes of interpretation, which we aren’t equipped to unravel.

But don’t take this as a vote of confidence for Zaytuni-style romanticization of tradition; I have no use for that either.

Salam MH,

>>thinkers such as Muhammad ‘Abduh; back to the texts in order to arrive at a more liberal approach to Islam which would be true to its “spirit” yet also in tune with modernity (???).

In short, yes prior to its cooptation by Saudi scholars after the Salafi ideas migrated from Syria and prior to its partial cooption by the Muslim Brotherhood.

- A Salafi in worship, a Sufi in society, a Secularist in government.

Another one,

>>Without these [classical Arabic dictionaries], we don’t know what the words mean; but are these meanings ever free of interpretation? (especially highly contested words such as “qawwamun” or “khimar”...)

Well, that is one of the great unanswered questions of our time: should we interpret the Quran to follow what it meant to the people who lived as it was being revealed or what it means to us? I don’t really have a position yet. Tabatabai wrote in his tafsir “al-Mizan” that all Quranic verses have relevance to all peoples, times and places. I kneejerked this, “BS; some of these are clearly referencing the behavior of actual people in specific instances, while other ayat are indeed general and universal”. But, as I read on, it seemed his argument was that God used these specific instances as opportunities to deliver a universal lesson. Its a quite logical point, but I still have not thought through the implications of accepting this point, or conversely the implications of rejecting it.

- A Salafi in worship, a Sufi in society, a Secularist in government.

Laury, I did not claim there has been a unified theology historically, but that historically creedal unity was what was considered definitional, i.e. beliefs are what made one a Muslim, not ritual observance.  Of course, failure to abide by proper practices could be dangerous — even fatal — but that was not sufficient for a person to be deemed non-Muslim.  Accordingly, sinning — no matter how grave — could not justify eternal damnation, at least according to Sunnis. 

Ghazali has a very interesting discussion on ijtihad, theology and apostasy in al-Mustasfa, where he breaks things down very systematically, into issues where truth is demanded, and failure to recognize it leads to damnation or to sin; where truth does not exist, and therefore, sin as such cannot exist (except to the extent that one is subjectively violating what one believes to be the relevant norm).  So, some theological matters, e.g. is God one in His essence or Three, is a matter of ontological truth, and failure to recognize God's generic oneness results in eternal damnation (unless there is an intervening excuse or God otherwise forgives, based on the distinction between wa'd and wa'id, although that is a distinction rooted in revelation, not reason).  Other theological matters, e.g. does God have a rule for all human actions, is also a matter of dogma (God does not, according to al-Ghazali), and to believe that God does is sinful, but does not result in exclusion from faith.  Some fiqh matters, e.g., the obligation of daily prayer, also are amenable to knowledge, i.e. we know them objectively to be part of God's command, and therefore, denying that obligation is tantamount to rejection of God.  Most matters of fiqh, however, are not amenable to knowledge, and therefore, their rejection or acceptance can never result in a rejection of God.  Finally, failure to observe God's command, even God's objective commands that are known with certainty, e.g. prayer, constitutes only sin, not rejection of God. 

Now, we may disagree as to which doctrine or practice falls into which category, but I think Ghazali does a fairly good job of outlining traditional Sunni perspectives on the creed.  It is that approach that gives Sunnism creedal unity and coherence, something that Salafism lacks.  I believe doctrinal rigor — in the epistemological sense — is critical in establishing a theology for our times.  The eclecticism of even Muhammad 'Abduh's salafism (and I would not hold him responsible for modern Salafism) is not useful for us who experience Islam outside of a coherent community . . .  Ours must be explicitly intellectual in a way that Muslims living in a country like Egypt need not.

Was-salam,

Mohammad

Salam Muhammad,

>>I believe doctrinal rigor — in the epistemological sense — is critical in establishing a theology for our times. The eclecticism of even Muhammad ‘Abduh’s salafism … is not useful for us who experience Islam outside of a coherent community. Ours must be explicitly intellectual in a way that Muslims living in a country like Egypt need not.

Interesting. Can you give some examples so I can understand what such a thing would look like before I decide to be for or against it?

- A Salafi in worship, a Sufi in society, a Secularist in government.

progressive?? liberal???

What a stupid label you guys put on yourself?
there is no right or left in this world! Full of BS.
there ain’t a dime of difference between the democrats party and republican party.

Finding equality in the mosque… is another absorb dream that you guys dream off. Man accepting woman Imams is also blasphameaus! If you wanna pray(salah) to God.. just pray(salah) pray to God, If your interested in praying(salah) in a ‘new modify’ way.. Just make your own new religion and proclaim with your new ‘inspiration’ make believe teaching. If this so call “gender equality” is so damn important to you, more important than your God and his Messengger?

You should quit this stuff and strive to find the ‘real’ truth! both in religion, science and history. I just hint show you some of them.

Feminst movement has its root in Communnist movement!
More than 20-30 million died in the Bolsheveikh revolution!
A true and hidden holocoust!(not like the overblown german one)!
More people have die in this Un’God’ly cause than in the name of any religion.

Stop this attack/anti on pro family… pro straight.. pro life and pro religion.
Quit all these falsehood and search for the real truth!

Yeah, kuku, you picked the right name- for you most certainly are. Goodbye.

so what comments was so Wrong?

show me!

Is it me or is there an uncomfortable streak of Anti-Arab sentiment here? As for anti-americanism, its everywhere nowadays. Think about it, the way the US is screwing the Middle East, how can they not be anti-american?

OmarG has been accused of being anti-arab before. I have no stand on whether he is or is not. I think there is a strong streak of Nativism in American Islam that arises from the resentment of immigrants forcing their sense of their cultural superiority down the throats of Muslims born here, even second and third generation immigrants. I am sympathetic to that. It is a bit irritating being told that curry is sunna to eat or that some particular arab silliness such as hating black dogs is a major doctrinal issue we have to be very serious about. But I think this Nativism need not be insidious if we simply realize it as a symptom of our growing independent cultural identity as part of a global Muslim identity.

GMasala, you’re speaking too generally; what is “here”? you mean in my blog entry or on PI.org? PI.org is hardly displays anti-arab sentiments. Me, on the otherhand, have been amply accused of it. Its somewhat laughable since I speak both Classical Arabic (or read, actually, since I would have no one to “speak” it to) and a dialect or two. Oh, BTW I’m married to an Arab as well; it just worked out that the best woman for me was ethnically Arab, but rare among them did not have a superiority complex. Laury pretty much has it covered accurately. GMasala, if you like Arab cock down your throat, by all means go for it, but don’t call it Islamic and tell me I ahve to do it, too!

- A Salafi in worship, a Sufi in society, a Secularist in government.

For example, women-led prayer: this is not a matter of dogma, and accordingly it should be something that Muslims can agree to disagree on without impeaching someone's faith. This, however, works both way: just as I do not condemn those who think this is permissible, I also expect those who endorse it not to condemn those who object to it.  At the same time, I think there are better and worse arguments for it on each side, and I am all in favor of pointing out whenever anyone makes a non-sensical argument., even if that person's conclusion happens to coincide with mine. 

(For the record, I was asked about female-led prayer in the context of a listserv for Muslim lawyers, said I did not think it was permissible, and somehow, my e-mail came to be included in an internet pdf document of all the fatwas against it.  For the record, the best argument in favor it would be to describe it as a bid'a hasana in the context of Islam in the west).

Matters that have theological consequences, however, need to be taken quite seriously.  In that regard, I can point to MH's discussion of the images of Paradise in the Quran.  Her analysis suggests that the Quranic imagery of Paradise is (and I need to be careful here) alienating to women in so far as it suggests that women exist in Paradise only for the pleasure of men.  In short, the erotic images in the Quran are thoroughly male-centered, suggesting at some deep level the Quran is not as concerned for women as men.  I take it that the more generic descriptions of paradise, e.g. wujuh yawma'idhin nadira; ila rabbiha nazira, does not solve the problem for MH (even though theologians stated that the nazar is the greatest reward in Paradise), because the point is that there are no erotic images in the Quran celebrating pleasure from the female perspective.  These, and other issues that arise once you take equality seriously as a moral principle, raise a whole set of thorny questions of theodicy, even if one as a legal matter, can argue why Islam is compatible with gender equality, e.g. why did God create a world in which gender based subordination was adaptive rather than just obviously wrong?

Mohammad

I think it is both interesting and intellectually disapointing that a mere mention of female led prayer totalling less than 6 words or so drowns out the larger world view I am exploring in this post.

- A Salafi in worship, a Sufi in society, a Secularist in government.

????

Dear Gmasala:

I agree with you. There is an anti-Arab sentiment lurking. I am not
so sure it can be so readily dismissed as resentment at Arabs shoving
their faith down the throat of non-Arab Muslims. Given the current
climate of anti-immigrant bashing, I am wary and feel distinctly
uncomfortable. It is interesting that you too pick up on the sentiment.

Is that language really necessary?  In addition to being vulgar, why is it associate with Arabs and no one else? 

Mohammad

I'm interested in the idols we set up and allow us to be distracted: hands at the side or not, women at prayer or not, vulgar language or not. No one has really been able to tell me how traditional fiqh or scholarship is relevant to a convert population. Focusing on the idols tells me you all are unable to articulate a convincing, yet rational answer to that question. It seems many Muslims hold on to it for emotive reasons, but exactly how does the human and post-prophetic efforts of a bunch of Dead Middle Eastern Men (to modify a phrase used in American culture) relate to us today in America? Can anyone pleeeease address THAT!?

One of the tihings that fuels my anger is that at Friday Prayer, the Arab-speaking guest said he would not translate his khutba into English, "to motivate us to learn Arabic." This, in a multi-ethnic mosque. Me, disenfranched in my OWN FREAKIN COUNTRY! Because I'm white and not obviously Muslim, I am "privelaged" occiasonally to hear specific slurs against Arabs and I give people an unexpected "helluva talkin' to" to discourage them. But, this is the thanks I get. I just don't feel why I should look like a traitor to other Americans anymore for sticking up for people who treat us like shit like that. 

- A Salafi in worship, a Sufi in society, a Secularist in government.

Salam alaikum,

 So, this fellow insults you so you can insult all Arabs?  That seems like a rational response. 

In any case, why should we care about "the "human" and "post-prophetic" efforts of a bunch of Dead Middle Eastern Men"?  The same reason we care about human history in general: we learn from it.  Fetishizing the past is just as silly as demonizing it.  Finally, it is sometimes surprising how often those "Dead Middle Eastern Men" discussed issues that are still relevant today.  We need to read them critically, however, and not as though they are idols.  And, finally, most of these "Dead Middle Eastern Men" weren't even Arabs.  

Mohammad 

Oh fuck off Laury, show me a single Muslim who insists the curry is sunnah. Thats absurd and frankly speaking your “nativism” smells a lot like anti-immigrant stale kebabs. So the Islam of immigrants is bad while yours is authentic and beyond question. Sounds like chauvinism to me. Omar, my comments were referring to this specific post of yours.

Omar, I’m curious. Your attitude is extremely confrontational and smacks of racism. I very much doubt you are well versed in Arabic, classical or modern. I haven’t seen anything in your post to suggest so.
I don’t like cock whether it’s Arab, American or otherwise. Getting Arab pussy and a flagpole jammed in your ass every night doesn’t make you an expert on the Arabs, and certainly not on Islam. Think about that before generalizing.

I thought you spoke Arabic, so why are you so angry if the khutba is in Arabic? You act as if you’re doing Islam a favor by sitting amongst the rest of us. You make it sound like being white is being American.
You’re confused dude.

>>Oh fuck off Laury, show me a single Muslim who insists the curry is sunnah.

I’ve heard similar things about Indo-Pak culture when I used to go with the Tablighi Jamat. It happens. What’s not so bad is that a few people say it, but when no one sounds the bull shit alarm over it…

Gmasala: I don’t care what you think. You’re simply not a factor in my life. Have fun.

Muhammad: no, you’re right, its not a rational response and its emotional. I do apologize if you feel offended, especially if you’ve never acted like that towards non-Arabs. But, like I said, when no other Arabs sound the bull shit alarm, it must mean they agree with it or else are sheep in the face of a charlatan who looks and sound pious. So, they earned it, too.

- A Salafi in worship, a Sufi in society, a Secularist in government.

I’ve heard all kinds of stories as well, you know the usual crap about how Islam oppresses woman and all that. But I don’t take that sort of nonsense seriously or use it as an example of how bad non-Muslims are. I know some people in tabligh jammat and no one ever told me curry is sunnah. Sounds like a straw man argument against immigrants by self-righteous nativist assholes.
I’m sure you don’t care Omar(neither do I), but that doesn’t excuse the dishonesty of your arguments and the not-so-subtle racism in them. I hope you grow out of it.

Gmasala,

>>I know some people in tabligh jammat and no one ever told me curry is sunnah.

So, if you didn't experience, then it never happens? You "know people". That's nice, but I've actually gone out on jawlah and to ijtima's when I was a teenager, so I did more than just "know people". That's a pathetic response.

>>not-so-subtle racism in them.

As compared to the not-so-sublte racism of guests in my country that flip us off culturally?? Respect is a two way street. Until converts get some, this convert isn't giving any out. Sit and stew if you must.

- A Salafi in worship, a Sufi in society, a Secularist in government.

Omarg, you got vulgar…not emotional.

Omarg is ready for another therapy session(s)...

Ginan Rauf: Where are you?

Shouldn’t YOU know?

- A Salafi in worship, a Sufi in society, a Secularist in government.

Omar, I went to ijtimas and on jawlas as well, and no one ever said curry is sunnah. I didn’t find it in Fazaila Amal either so don’t give me that line as if its canon. You’re just trying to make immigrant Muslims look like ignorant superstitious idiots while you got it all figured it.
What is this “guests in my country” shit? Its not “your” country only. I was born here, and am 100% American and 100% Muslim. Whether they were born here or overseas, they don’t owe you shit. Maybe you’re not getting the respect you so desire because you’re too busy being racist nativist asshole looking down on others.
With that sort of attitude, forget respect you’re going to get ass kicked. Thank God you don’t represent converts at all.

GM, you are a little too quick on the draw here.  This old piece of mine is a better idea of what I think.  

Fadel, thanks for the comments here.

Well, America doesn’t owe you shit either, so don’t think you’re going to get special rights just because you’re an oh so special Muslim. We (converts) are the future. The fact you may have been born here only shows that you will be more like us than your parents. Ha, we win.

>>Thank God you don’t represent converts at all.

As if you represented converts? Which only proves my point that y’all only seem to like converts when we act like you and wish we were you. I don’t. I like America mostly the way it is. The last thing I want is immigrant Muslims to replicate thier failed cultures here. No wonder the French act like that towards y’all.

>>and am 100% American

Then f-ing act like it! Talking crap about CAIR trying to appease the kufar. Well, mutha, those kufar include my parents, siblings, uncles and are all around you and are the ones who made this country the “department store in the sky” that your parents bailed out of thier failed country to come to. So, ha! We win again.

- A Salafi in worship, a Sufi in society, a Secularist in government.

Oh please, the only one whining here is you Omar. Get over yourself you cry baby. What failed immigrant culture are you carping about? The non-existent “curry is sunnah” bullshit? Whats next? Tandoori Chicken is fard? Fuck off. Whether converts are the future or not isn’t the question, I can assure you, mancunts like you aren’t a part of any future. You strike me as a guy who probably uses Islam as a way of scoring what you view as foreign exotic Arab pussy.
You don’t dictate to me or any other Muslim what to do or “how to be American.” I’m a 4th generation American so you can kiss my all-American ass you racist nativist motherfucker. We’re a nation of 300 million people and you’re going to have to accept the fact that not everybody is going to agree with you. I don’t know what fuck you have to bring CAIR or your parents(who probably came to America floating in a show box) into this for. Muslims are not some sort of monolith waiting some arrogant white son of bitch like you to show us the “light.” Don’t give me that “white mans burden” bullshit. No wonder anti-american attitudes are so common. If you want respect you better start earning it, because you show up at any mosque in America with your “I’m the great white convert, respect me, toss my salad you filthy immigrants” attitude, you’ll get your ass beat. I guarantee you it’ll be the converts landing the blows.
Grow up Ann Coulter!

Bonkers, thou great white gerbil, I think it’s time you intervened…

You, dumbass, think you’ve graced us with your presence.

>>I guarantee you it’ll be the converts landing the blows.

‘cause y’all are so damn weak you couldn’t do it yourselves. That’s why anyone who wants to stomps around your parents’ homelands like they owned it. Shove it.

- A Salafi in worship, a Sufi in society, a Secularist in government.

Omar, was that a response? All that talk about how big and superior you are, with your modern and classical Arabic blah, blah blah, and that’s the best you could come with it? Dude, you’re a bigger pussy fart then I gave you credit for. Our family came and settled in America long before your grandfather was an itch in his pappy’s nutsack. So I wouldnt act like you’re hot nativist shit if I were you. Normally I wouldn’t use such crude language but I’m more then happy to make an exception for a racist turd like you. I don’t think you could understand any other language. What’s sadly ironic is that when your ancestors immigrated to America, they were probably treated like shit by people who thought like you, and here you are repeating the cycle of hatred towards immigrants and new Americans. What a selfish and hypocritical prick. You really ought start your own website, eWhinyAssBitch.com.

Whoopy ding, byotch. Is the best you can come up with? Whose been here longer? How about this: one of us came to someone’s website and started cussing at a woman. Yup, that’s YOU! So, guess what: your little punk ass got handed back to you. Son, I’ve been Muslim longer than you’ve been alive, so don’t even think you’ve earned the cred to front here on people and act like you know what Islam is supposed to be just because your dollar-seeking parents came here because that-oh-so-Islamic homeland of yours is a piece of shit. So, look back and see who opened thier sewer first and you’ll see it was your self-righteous ass that first spewed forth. And, why not admit you think you “got” Islam because of your origins and think you can front on us with it? Step off, little boy…

- A Salafi in worship, a Sufi in society, a Secularist in government.

‘Bonkers, thou great white gerbil, I think it’s time you intervened…mh

Bonkers, thou great white gerbil, please do not intervene. Ginan Rauf used to give omarg therapy whenever she had time. I have not seen her on these boards lately. I posted an appeal to have her help him. I am hopeful that she would show up to retool omarg. In the meantime, Omarg is a basket case. Omarg case(!!)(he uses lower case speech to express his emotions) has deteriorated….it is time that someone like GMasala performs exorcism on him. Who knows, may be GMasala would fix this pseudo intellectual (+ other expletives) for good.

Let us pray!!.

Wrong on all counts cowboy. You really want to compare family trees? I bet yours looks like a big fucking stump. Where you from, boy? When, where and for much did you become a convert for, Mr.”Curry is sunnah”? Don’t complain to me about cursing since you started talking about sucking cock(no doubt speaking and choking from experience). I called you out on your nativist” I was here first” anti-immigrant bullshit and look at you, like a dizzy fucking clown falling over himself trying to get his story straight. The only immigrants who should have been kept out were your parents from whatever European shit hole they crawled out from. Try harder you racist clusterfucked son of a bitch.

Center, the only “therapy” this cock-faced cum bubble needs is a combined beating from both immigrants and converts. I never thought I would see such virulent racist xenophobia from someone calling himself a Muslim. This fucktard makes the wahabis look sane!

No, you’re not dreaming, I’m really here to lend insight, perspective, and general bad-assery to the conversation, You guys can thanks me later :-D

First;

I’m sure I’m the last person who has room to talk, but can we take this down a few notches? We’re seriously departing the limits set down for debating religion in both the Qu’ran and the Sunnah. We’re supposed to argue gently with the ahul-l-kitab, how much more so with other Muslims?

Second:

My $0.02

Yeah, it’s ridiculous for immigrants to come here, shoot their mouths off about this wicked land of kafirun, the lack of morals, and even support terrorism (though this last has tuned down a bit since 9/11) while enjoying the milk and honey. It’s even more ridiculous that they start talking about bringing failed visions of Islam and broken down tribalist systems to the new world. Watching reverts swallow the Kool Aid is even more painful…I’ve never seen a desi say that curry is Sunnah, but I HAVE seen crackers and blacks do it. I’ve met Muslims who sit on the floor, eating with their right hand, wearing mismatched shalwar kamiz and kufis while lecturing those of us who actually have some understanding of history and Islamic law that we are imitating the Kafirun. That’s just the reverts too. It’s always fun having some rich gulf Arab speak badly of the west after partying all night at the strip club (Omar G, you KNOW which guys I’m talking about right? they’re at U of A every year). Watching brothers talk about how they’re gonna make hijra can be mind-bending, because half the time these guys think they’re going to some Islamic paradise nothing will ever be wrong again, which is pie in the sky fantasy. The truth is, it’s actually EASIER in many ways to follow authentic Islam here than in a lot of the mideast. Largely because nobody is threatening to kill, imprison, or harass you for not doing it THEIR way. Like Jay-Z said, we got 99 Problems, but freedom of conscience ain’t one. Or something like that, I can’t be bothered to put the CD on right now.

I believe in (as far as possible) jettisoning the cultural baggage without adding more cultural baggage. I’m not asking anyone to give up their culture, simply to recognize that their culture and Islam are NOT the same thing. This goes both ways though; I get a little nervous when people start wanting to turn Islam into a reflection of western culture. Islam is Islam. Yeah, the final cycle of revelation is from a 7th century Arab, but that does not mean being a Muslim should be like being a 7th century Arab. And it is even more ridiculous to think that being a Muslim should be based on being a 12th century desi. That being said, the Sunnah is still important and anyone in the west who pushes an Islam devoid of integral strength where it’s acceptable to get drunk on Eid and mock the Prophet (saaws) is throwing their own un-Islamic cultural crap on the same slagheap that weighs the ummah down.

I’m missing a pretty big chunk of my cultural heritage. My grandma and Aunts came here in the 50s, and the first thing they did when they got off the boat was Americanize. I mean, to a ridiculous degree, almost self-parodying; living in trailers, listening to Country music, smoking Marlboros, John Wayne commemorative plates on the walls, going to rodeos, marrying cowboys, cooking the blandest heartland American food….So except a few leftover oddities (Nasi Goreng, Jam and cheese sandwhiches, Hans and the Silver Skates, Black licorice candy), my Dutch/Indonesian heritage is largely a mystery to me. And I have never felt like I was incomplete or any of that other shit because of it. I ended up going to Holland while I was living/working/traveling in Europe, and all I felt was “Wow. This is a fun place” I didn’t feel like I’d come home, or any shit like that. This is why I tend to think most of the Jewish college brats, who justify their nationalist tomfoolery with “I knew in my heart I’d come home” after their “Birthright” trip to Israel are full of shit, but also it just re-enforced the idea I had that culture was cool, could be very beautiful, BUT…was not something sacred and inborn, just something we learn and, inshallah, take the good from and ditch the bad. I grew up largely around Mexican culture in San Diego and Tucson. I love a lot of things about it…But I gotta say, there’s a lot of stuff there that is absolute garbage too. I could make a list, but I’m a commentator, not a columnist.

And let’s face it, is there ANYTHING more annoying than a plastic paddy? Some college age jerkoff who may be 1/8th Irish but has set it up as his identity even though he doesn’t know a shillelagh from Sinn Fein and would get his ass kicked for pissing on the streets in Dublin on St. Patty’s day? It also comes from the somewhat forced, hidebound concept of culture people have developed. I like Irish culture, actually, in its traditional form, but I also like South Boston “Irish” Culture. These are NOT the same thing. Every culture (or language, for that matter) only exists because others died and/or combined to lead up to it. This is true with every “Muslim” culture, and it is true of the Arabic language itself (the whole “Qu’ran is uncreated” argument is pretty self-evidently ridiculous nationalism, but that’s really neither here nor there).

Sorry if this seems disjointed, it’s 3:12 a.m. and I’ve been here at work for about 12 hours with about 5 more to go. Damn doubles, man. Al-hamidullah for Oolong and Mate’.

Anyway, Omar and I do not come from precisely the same direction. There’s a LOT of shit about the west I am not down with. I consider myself a Sufi, if I am going to call myself anything past “Muslim” (though a pretty orthodox, bare-bones one for the most part). I don’t think reverts have any claim to be ahead of ‘born’ Muslims (though I do think people who believe that they are ‘saved’ just by being born into Muslim families do not understand Islam at all). But he makes some pretty good points, which bear listening to.

I’m not really sure whether OmarG and GMasala (whose names look strangely symmaterical written thusly) have an irreducible argument, or are misunderstanding some of each-others’ points. I may come back to that later. But I do prefer a sane, honest Salafi to a crazy, disingenuous Sufi any day of the week. Take from that what you will.

Thanks for your words DA, I throughly enjoyed it.

Dear Center:

I am not ignoring your appeal. I never thought of myself as giving
therapy to anyone. These days I am dealing with breast cancer
and have to brace myself for the chemo/therapy. I have had to
quit my job, teaching Arabic of all things, due to the brutal commute
so my frame of mind is one of recovery. the atmosphere seems toxic
and I don’t think I am up to it really.

Ginan

Salam Dave, sorry you had to see all that invective. It definately wasn’t what I had in mind when I asked you to take a look.

- A Salafi in worship, a Sufi in society, a Secularist in government.

I am very sorry to hear that Ginan. May you make a full and complete recovery inshallah.