Kids, don’t be fooled by what Laury says. I’m not nearly the bad mamma jamma she makes me out to be. I am merely a geek with a dream. Laury, on the other hand, is the woman. I’m just the woman standing next to the woman.
That said, I hope at least some of you can make it.

Will there be lakhas with sour cream and apple sauce?

That is a good idea, but no. No cooking at that hour! I’m ordering the croissants from this place here that makes the real thing. I’m going to see if I can order coffee from them as well, they use Peets. I’ll get fresh berries, granola, yogurt, and milk from another local place. Good stuff, yum!

I am so pleased one of my dearest friends said he wants to come to the prayer. He is a non-Muslim. Very much an adopted little brother to me. He wants to what all this Islam stuff is about for me. Isn’t that nice? He’s coming all the way up from NYC for it.

I could be persuaded to whip up some for Watch Night, however. Just spread the word.

See this is why she makes the perfect imam, she knows how to do all the ritual stuff and…..she likes making food for everyone and organizing things. I can see her running a mosque, easy!

Three years ago, I’d have been sooooo grateful for this type of initiative. Just knowing that there was someone else out there who was sick and tired of all the inferior treatment meted out to women in mosques and Muslim prayer spaces, and who didn’t buy in to all the apologetic twaddle would have been a great comfort.

But now that I’ve prayed in situations where gender is irrelevant—in terms of who leads, or where people stand, or who gives adhan—I can’t go back. I find it really hard to force myself to go to any prayer which doesn’t accept women leading, or which segregates participants according to gender. We’re all human beings, no more and no less, and I can no longer function in any worship setting which communicates otherwise.

I have no problem with this, but I find it telling that you mention how many secular and non-Muslim people are backing you up on this. Why this incessant urge to please the kafirun, really, and make Islam conform to their expectations? If you think women-led prayer is Islamically sound and the right way to go, cool; I have no particular disagreement. However, when people think prayer is just pointless mumbo-jumbo then what should it matter who is or isn’t allowed to lead?

Incidentally, Laurie, kinda surprised you’re a Maliki; Imam Malik pronounced the death penalty as a punishment for homosexuality.

DA, pitching for a fight as usual. Re-read the context above and find those places where I said or implied anything of the sort you imagine. I find it very hard to respond to your critiques because they so often seem to be intentional misreadings. As I would say to a student, “Where did you find that idea in the text?”

As for your other point, Islamic jurisprudence is not as simply imagined as you take it to be. That said, I am not claiming to be representing any legal school when I urge readers to consider that woman-led prayer or homosexual relations through marriage should be legalized. Because I ask Muslims to consider these questions proves the point that I am aware they are prohibited.

I am exhausted by the ugly language and baiting that goes on here.

Why should it be seen as problematic that secular Muslims (or non-Muslims) would support women-led prayer?

You know, it could be that some of them were turned off Islam (or decided that there was no way they could ever convert to Islam) precisely because of the way Muslim women are treated…

I was not trying to be rude or baiting you. You mention the support you’ve been getting from those who don’t practice Islam as a religion. If you feel I’m looking for a fight by disagreeing with you, that’s unfortunate. If you were just independantly hanging and doing your thing, I would say yeah, nobody’s opinion would be relevant. However, you’ve made it clear that you guys are trying to take an activist role and change things within Islam. Thus, you invite community debate. It’s how things work, and it’s only fair. If I was just looking for a fight, explain to me why the bulk of my communication with you was until recently positive. Even on the gay rabbi issue, I was trying to be civil until Nakia decided to be rude for no reason and ignore basic ideas of courtesy and discourse. If you want to change things and say controversial shit, you should be ready to talk it out a bit.

And yes, I know fiqh is a big field with a lot of variation. However, The Maliki school has always, to my knowledge, been harshly critical of homosexuality (far moreso than I am, for what it’s worth). So calling yourself “Maliki” while professing the opposite of some of its rulings makes me curious. That’s all. And if you’re saying you know x and y are forbidden, I’m kinda forced to wonder why you’d challenge it.

As to MH: Non-Muslims’ opinions of the internal workings of Islam are irrelevant. They can certainly have an opinion on them but unless something deomnstratably affects them directly, they have no right to have any say in it whatsoever.

I was raised Mormon. I accept that once I left, I couldn’t be an activist within the church, nor could I say “I’m culturally Mormon” or some such nonsense. What I and they disagree on, we disagree on. It’s not my place to try to change their faith more to my liking; I simply did the honest thing, and left. Bim, bam , boom. If you don’t believe in Islam, really, that’s cool but you don’t belong in the masjid and you sure as hell have no place making policy there. If women leave Islam due to chauvanism, that is unfortunate (though understandable!), but ultimately the issue is whether they actually believe or not. If they don’t, they should just stay away from this thing that vexed them so much.

I’m not protesting the issue being raised. I’m against what I see as people who want to “reform” Islam letting iman and taqwa take a backseat to socio-cultural issues. If I was spoiling for a fight, I would have just brought up Hakim Baker’s ridiculous “joke religion” approach to Islam, mocking buzzkill again (interesting that you accuse me of being rude but managed to chase off one of your own people) or started calling names. I did none of these.

Hmmm. Let’s think a bit more about this all-too-common “if you don’t like it, leave” approach to dissent in the Muslim community. I’d have more respect for it if it wasn’t so blatantly hypocritical.

Muslims over here are notoriously eager to make converts, and often give prospective converts a less-than-honest picture of what “Islam” is or what they can expect. Yet, when converts discover the fine print (whether through further reading or lived experience), or learn that those ideals depicted in those shiny da’wa pamphlets or romanticized Zaytuni-style tapes often don’t work in real life, they tend to be told to submit or get out.

This might be possible—easy, even—for male and/or single converts. This is often very difficult for women married to Muslims who have raised their children in Islam, due to the attitudes and practices of our Muslim communities.

Let’s face it: “Islam” has been changed historically by its encounters with various peoples, and it will continue to be changed by its interactions with North American converts. There is no “pure Islam” somewhere out there which stands above and beyond history or human cultures.

Man, you talk so much while saying almost nothing. You don’t address anything I actually say, and just set up strawmen. You and FM are two peas in a pod, mos def.

“Muslims over here are notoriously eager to make converts, and often give prospective converts a less-than-honest picture of what “Islam” is or what they can expect. Yet, when converts discover the fine print (whether through further reading or lived experience), or learn that those ideals depicted in those shiny da’wa pamphlets or romanticized Zaytuni-style tapes often don’t work in real life, they tend to be told to submit or get out.”

I’m not telling them they have to obey the imam or whatever. I’m saying that if you don’t believe in Islam, it’s dumb to be involved with Islam. It’s pretty obvious really. I can sympathize with believers who have doubts. I can’t sympathize with someone who walks into a house of worship and says “I don’t believe in your religion, but I’m going to come in here and tell you what to do anyway”. It’s the height of arrogance.

“This might be possible—easy, even—for male and/or single converts. This is often very difficult for women married to Muslims who have raised their children in Islam, due to the attitudes and practices of our Muslim communities.”

Shit, they’ll just have to act like adults then and take responsability for their lives. Terrifying.

“Let’s face it: “Islam” has been changed historically by its encounters with various peoples, and it will continue to be changed by its interactions with North American converts. There is no “pure Islam” somewhere out there which stands above and beyond history or human cultures.”

There may not be a culture based around it, but yes, there is “pure” Islam as delivered to us through the prophet (saws). The Qu’ran is called “Al-Furqan” for a reason.

Let’s just cut to the chase, with no ambiguities or word games; do you believe that “la illaha il allah wa muhammadan rasulullah”? Or is Islam just a cultural construct for you? If the latter, then no, you are not a Muslim, and you have no place dictating what Muslims do in apporach to our faith. If the former, then your attitudes are puzzling, to say the least.

My father’s lack of involvement with religion is at least partially due to the way Muslim women are treated. He expresses support for what I do, as a proud (and slightly worried) father. I, too, have well-wishers who vary in their faith traditions and approaches to praxis. I would call them a term that may be unfamiliar to some who comment here, so I’ll be happy to explain this term upon request. I consider them my friends.

Who decides, ultimately, what is and isn’t Islam? Or islam?

I don’t claim to be Muslim, though one or two around here have called me muslim, which I appreciate, but it certainly doesn’t make me Muslim. I don’t know what my “joke religion approach to Islam” is—I have sincere interest and a lot of sympathy for many manifestations of Islam. I also support Nakia F.M. and Laury. I’m glad they’re going ahead and doing what they’re doing rather than asking permission and waiting.

Nakia, what term are you talking about?

Salam Dave,

>>but I find it telling that you mention how many secular and non-Muslim people are backing you up on this.

‘Cause Islam is for everyone. While I agree with at least vaguely defined “borders” for Islam vs. not Islam, being inclusive of everyone is quite Islamic. The other thing, inclusing only self-identified Muslims is really that monster we encounter in everyday Muslim life: Identity Islam, or as I like to call it, “Islam, the Movie”.

- A Salafi in worship, a Sufi in society, a Secularist in government.

Also Dave,

>>letting iman and taqwa take a backseat to socio-cultural issues.

Sometimes its really hard to have iman when other people who beleive act like assholes to someone for social or cultural reasons. That’s the reason I can’t be around immigrant communities: my iman goes down. Perhaps if they didn’t push that monstrous Identity Islam, my iman would remain intact with them. I’m willing to admit that my iman depends on a positive environment. I’ve tried that “Ummah of One” thing, but it didn’t help too much. Being in an environment of other convert Muslims who don’t hate where we come from and didn’t go Salafi or immigrantize has helped me tremendously. So, socio-cultural issues do matter, I say.

- A Salafi in worship, a Sufi in society, a Secularist in government.

“do you believe that “la illaha il allah wa muhammadan rasulullah”? Or is Islam just a cultural construct for you?”

Why is this an either/or situation? Of course Islam as we know it is a cultural construct. Naturally. It’s the result of human interpretations of Muhammad’s message and how it should be lived in various situations. Including (back to our original topic) the Shariah laws governing congregational prayers.

“If the latter, then no, you are not a Muslim, and you have no place dictating what Muslims do in apporach to our faith. If the former, then your attitudes are puzzling, to say the least.”

Who is dictating what to whom here?
Where have I (or anyone else here) called for forcing anything on anyone?

I find it interesting that converts are often the most anxious about maintaining boundaries between Muslim and non-Muslim (as if there is always a clear distinction anyway). What’s with the labels (“kafirun”)? You talk about your own relatives and neighbours that way ?!?

“Non-Muslims’ opinions of the internal workings of Islam are irrelevant. They can certainly have an opinion on them but unless something deomnstratably affects them directly, they have no right to have any say in it whatsoever.”

Really? Maybe if Muslims want to set up their own, self-sufficient and totally pacifistic communities like the Amish did. But as long as Muslims take welfare, attend public schools and benefit from government-funded programmes, what they do IS everyone’s business, like it or not. The oppression of Muslim women in many North American Muslim communities, which is symbolized and affirmed so graphically in the way women are often treated in the mosque, does have direct economic and social consequences.

What is Islam?

My Islam is tainted by my ethnic heritage and the geo-politics of Iran and Afghanistan and the schism of the early Muslim community in the Battle of Karbala.

However, this contact with Islam is highly subjective and personal to me.

I’m not white (therefore not part of the US majority) though my Mexican counterparts are forming an emerging majority in the Southwest at least.

I’m also not “heterosexual” and have witnessed how Islamic concepts are used to silence women when they are legitimately victimized.

The penalties for homosexuality in Islam are not found in the direct words of God, they are stated by men who are not even Prophets.

Why would I obey the word of an imam as “divine revelation” when Islam and the Qur’an are suppose to not be a burden?

If I want to be overburdened with scholastic jumbo mumbo, I should just be a Catholic and read the reports coming out of the Vatican, at least global Catholicism is more centralized.

Islam is decentralized theologically, oftentimes with competing centers of religious scholarship disagreeing or contradicting one another, but should I trust the word of a fellow man or trust my own instincts and reasoning, which God granted me?

Dave,

I agree with Omar’s sentiments, we all experience Islam differently.

What does it mean to be a Christian?

Is the experience of a Mormon less valid since they believe in an additional revelation that is not recognized by other Christians?

Are only Christians in communion with Rome granted a place in Heaven?

The same thing goes with Islam, any religion that spreads outside the culture of its origins, just as people are diverse, the religion will fracture into sects.

You have Muslims condemning the actions of US troops as war crimes, but Syria is notorious for killing Islamists, at least 10,000 by the most conservative counts available. But when do Muslims burn the flag of Muslim majority countries or their political leaders in effigy?

I wrote, "They span the range of conservative, traditional, to liberal, progressive, and in some cases secular. That is not to say that the majority of them support woman-led prayer. The majority do not support woman-led prayer. But the majority are very serious about gender injustice in the Muslim community."

"in some cases secular" I mentioned one group of secular muslims—very small in their number on the list—and four groups of non-secular muslims. I also pointed out that list-members DO NOT on the whole support woman-led prayer.

The following comment from DA makes no sense in the context of the post: "I find it telling that you mention how many secular and non-Muslim people are backing you up on this. Why this incessant urge to please the kafirun, really, and make Islam conform to their expectations?"

Perhaps DA assumed that those who support woman-led prayer must be secular or progressive? Quite the opposite. There is no reason to make that assumption given what I wrote.  In any case, I have found support for woman-led prayer from Muslims of all interpretive perspectives. Again, the majority on that list DO NOT support woman-led prayer. But I have found them to be deeply concerned about and committed to facing gender injustice in our community.

So let's sum this up:

The majority of Muslims on the list, irrespective of interpretive perspective, are committed to gender justice.

Some of the Muslims on the list, irrespective of interpretive perspective, support woman-led prayer.

I found the concern for gender justice hopeful. I wondered if Nakia's notion of "Shared Authority" could give the majority interested in gender justice a centrist model that might unify us all.

To clarify another point, in one of my comments I mentioned a non-Muslim friend coming along. I mentioned that because I thought it was nice that A FRIEND was coming along simply as my friend to support me as a friend. Think of it as him coming to watch me play at a softball game and cheering me on.

Finally, I do not care for DA's casual use of the word "kafir."  I believe there is a hadith that reports the Prophet (s) saying something to the effect of 'When one calls another a kafir surely one of them is."  It is not a word I am willing to use on anyone.  I cannot, as the Prophet challenged, open the heart of the person and see.  A person has a lot of chutzpah to toss that term around. 

In addition, perhaps DA should note that this website is designed for Muslims (whoever they are) to speak to each other.  If non-Muslims want to listen in and take part, they are welcome.  But this is not an ecumenical or inter-faith site.  It is a place for us to speak to each other openly without having to explain or apologize to non-Muslims. 

MH: Thanks for such a dodgy non-answer. Pretty much tells me what I want to know anyway though. And yes, it is an either/or proposition.

Hakim: When you mention how you think play rituals, CotS, and European Paganism are compatable with Islam, yeah, it’s a joke version. Your sympathy is nive but if you’re part of their vision of “progressive Islam” then it’s a doomed movement.

Omar: I agree that Islam is for everyone, but I don’t think everyone’s baggage is for Islam. Islam is supposed to refine people and change them for the better; that seems impossible to me if everyone just comes to Islam thinking it can change to accomodate them, a notion that seems at the heart of a lot of which is being discussed.

I agree with you and Gustavo that Islam is personal, but only to some extent. There is an intensely personal dimension, and also a legalistic and community dimension. Now, regardless of how much leeway in interpretation one gets as a result of that personal dimension, cultural Islam and all-inclusive Islam don’t make sense. If we want, we can re-define ANYTHING down to where it means everything to everyone, and we’ll simultaneously really make it mean nothing. As to Gustavo’s question of what a Christian is, I say simply, it’s one who fits the original definition of the word (one who tries to be “christ like”) or by extension believes in the primacy of christ on earth. I was one, now I’m not. I can accept this and I can accept that it’s not my place to determine matters of faith in my old church. “Cultural” Muslims need to do the same. They can’t be “Muslims”, because a Muslim is “one who submits”. If they don’t even believe that there is something to submit to, calling themselves “ones who submit” is nonsensical.

Gustavo, if you think I’m supporting sectarian/authoritarian Islam, you’re mistaken. I’m all for questioning the imams, the traditions, all of it. In fact, I’d say it’s nessescary. However, what is under discussion here lately seems to say that there are no boundires or guidelines or solid deinitions. If that’s true, then being a Muslim is pointless, and being a revert is just cultural cross-dressing. I don’t accept that.

Laurie; If I misunderstood some of your points, I’m sorry. My bad.

Leaving that aside for a moment, I’d really love to see some documentation on that hadith re; the Kafirun. See, we’re told in the Qu’ran (in fact, it gets a whole surah to itself), how to speak to the Kafirun and we relate to them. If it was an identification we were forbidden from making, telling us how to deal with it would be pointless. I do think it’s best to avoid throwing the word around, and if one is going to declare takfir on another individual, well, one had better make sure they are right. But those who reject faith are the kafirun, sorry that doesn’t fit with an all-inclusive semantic lovefest.

I don’t have a problem with non-Muslims having an opinion on Muslim issues. I do have a problem with non-Muslims trying to push their agenda in a Muslim setting. Let me ask you this; would you feel comfortable going into a sikh gurdwaara and telling them how to run their house?

Salam Dave,

So, if I get what you’re saying, you mean that its OK to ignore some parts of Islam? Because, not everyone follows everything. Indeed, you yourself and myself won’t carry out a stoning of an adulteror. The consequences for going the way you want with one defined Islam for all is that all people will end up ignoring some or even alot of things that are considered “Islamic”. Some people come up with excuses like, “We can’t stone adulterors because the state has to implement shariah and do it and not individuals.” Then, they say…because they know that historically people stoned even without a state (tribal authority or father’s authority was often enough), they say that , “Well, there is no shariah here so we can’t do that.” By implication, that means we can never be full Muslims living in non-Shariah America. Some people want to implement Shariah in family law in Canada to remedy that. But, almost all simply ignore it and are content with acknowledging that they only practice Islam partially. I’m not comfortable with that; I can and will be a fully practicing Muslim without being a foreigner and conform to the American culture I like. I don’t think there’s anything wrong that. I do, however, consider worship and basic theology such as aqidah (existance of angles, prophets, oneness of God, etc.) to be off limits to that, as I’ve stated here before.

As for me, I won’t do it not because murder is illegal here, but because I simply don’t beleive in stoning someone when its not in the Quran. I won’t take a life because of something that’s dodgy in the hadith. Overseas Muslims wanted us to present “proof” of Osama’s guilt, but they are willing to take women’s lives on the same shaky basis! So, yes, there is a desire to reinterpret some social aspects of Islamic culture and law so that it no longer conflicts with Western social practices that WORK while the “Traditionalist” Muslim social practices are horribly broken, not working, NOT helping and sowing, IMHO, much more harm than good. Something stinks in the state of Denmark, and rectifying that stink is a good thing™...

- A Salafi in worship, a Sufi in society, a Secularist in government.

DA, yes you did misunderstand. It would be better if we could ask each other questions to clarify our understanding rather than jumping in for a fight. What could be a constructive conversation becomes nothing but bickering.

This reminds of the Episcopalian Church in the US, you have some Epsicopalians denying the divinity of Christ and denying his role in the path of salvation.

This is a key tenet that united most Christians regardless of doctrinal differences.

The “mainline Protestant” churches in America are declining while more “fundamentalist Christian” churches are flourishing, where these churches have often persuaded their congregants to vote in a particular partisan matter and have traditionalist views on issues like marriage and sexuality.

Let me say this, homosexuality will never be accepted. In Islamic history, periods of tolerance towards certain aspects of homosexuality were allowed only to be repressed in latter generations.

The same things goes for the status of women, in some periods women enjoy gains and then in others they will experience setbacks.

The status of various groups is not destined to be on a teleological path where only progress is made, there will be gains and setbacks and sometimes regression too.

College educated women now face an unexplainable income gap with their male college educated counterparts, but part of the reason can be due to women’s life decisions.

AS for the move to have women in the mosque, some women are not content to leading Girl Scouts troops and just having a vote on the mosque board, some women want a greater role.

I say, since no one complains about women leading the khutba, why not compromise in the meantime, have a male prayer leader and a woman deliver the sermon at the minbar without leading the prayer, would anyone object to that?

Therefore, it becomes a team effort.

Because a little clarification probably won't hurt … DA, I don't believe I ever said anywhere what is or isn't compatible with Islam. I wouldn't feel it's my place. The post DA refers to is making fun of my own church.

If my sympathy is naive, so be it, I'm still learning.

Gustavo: I hope that, by pointing our the cyclical progress of social justice, you’re not trying to discourage efforts for change. We always have the opportunity to do better than we have been, and since we don’t know exactly when these opportunities will end, let’s take advantage of them while we have them.
Hakim: Mwah. That’s all for now.
DA: Apparently, you’ve misunderstood a fair number of things.
“Even on the gay rabbi issue, I was trying to be civil until Nakia decided to be rude for no reason and ignore basic ideas of courtesy and discourse.”
Or, even more to the point:
“...Nakia decided to be rude for no reason…”
Apply Occam’s razor here- you’ve misunderstood several comments made here already, such misunderstandings are documented. Given that I do not suffer from Tourette’s, or any other affliction that would incline me towards violent outbursts, is it not possible that you misunderstood me, repeatedly, as you have others on this site?
Omar, I wonder when the tradition of the pursuit of moral good will be revived. That’s one oldie but goodie I’d like to see.

Tourette’s doesn’t incline you towards violent outbursts, being as we don’t live inside the set of Duece Bigalowe or L.A. Law. I didn’t misunderstand you at all, though I could hardly have been blamed for doing so since you refuse to speak in an honest and straightforward manner. I admitted to misunderstanding one person, and more as regards degree than actual meaning. Get real.

Hakim, Nive was a typo for Nice, not naive :-) Sorry bout that.

Sigh Why should I have dared hope for anything resembling sense or knowledge?
Gustavo: I wonder if Keith Ellison would push for a revival of the ERA. Several of its provisions echo Qur’anic sentiments.

Yeah, since I’m the one who just made an ignorant remark about Tourette’s, right? But you can just answer it with your “Well, you’re too ignorant so I’ll just make a snide comment instead of backing up what I say” bit.

Shared authoirty is a good idea. I have seen two males share it:khateeb (1) and Imam(2). If males could share authority, then it should work nicely for female khateeb and a male imam. This is a stop gap measure until more males are more able to control their urges in a house of worship!.

stop gap meassure???. for what reason?

So after this, you can then promote the ultimate truth?

So right now the Muslim Ummah is living in falsehood, specially when they are praying(Salat)! When this new female Imam comes she would comes and enlighten people with the true meaning and teaching of God! All before is wrong and evil! She would promote Sexual-Gender neutralization where everyone is the same(not just equal) and have many sexual orientation acording to personal preferance. It is a free choice ya know. And we the New Ummah will live in a happy orgy society, that will truely submit to God, together in harmony!

hmmm… Nice concept but still sounds very gay, but there still a problem?? where is your balls?? are we not the same? or maybe you want us to cut it off too?