I officially eat crow. I would like it stir fried please with veggies and brown rice. I will be more careful about the use of such terms in the future. I will think about the use of such terms in the future. I promise.

One thing I think now, Hedonist, you are right in that PMUNA made me realize what a “conservative” I am. I just cannot toss aside the whole intellectual tradition as some “progressives” feel comfortable doing (note the quotes, I am being careful here). I may be over-reacting to my experience with them. Maybe we should use the word “serious”? Just kidding. But really, I’d like to see an Umma that can include the diverse group of people you mention there. That is what I hope for!

Bull-Toad on the not provocative part, you Hedonist. You are nothing if not always provocative. I’d put you right up there with Mike Knight in the Provocateur category. Sincere, decent, thoughtful, ethically inquisitive, and always in the end because of those things, provocative. Run with it. You’ve always chosen to run with it! That is provocative. You are not a poseur-provacateur, you are the real thing. You do not try to put yourself over, you are always over just in and of yourself.

Apologies again for ever calling anyone a conservative including myself. Who am I?

My crow is ready. Bismillah.

Christianity has also produced, in addition to humorous writers like CS Lewis, incredibly boring authors like CS Lewis, whose books cannot even be salvaged from their boredom even by Hollywood.

Muslim Hedonist

Laury: Apology accepted. Instead of the crow you planned on, how about pizza topped with spicy chicken and pineapple?

But to be fair to the PMU folks, from what I know of those of them that I know, I think that by and large they do see themselves as taking the Quran and the community seriously.

What some of them tend to want to do, though, is to run away from any intelligent discussion of the intellectual tradition, because they see it as either largely irrelevant to modern North American life, or as an entry-point for mullas to exercise the power of veto over anything too forward-looking.

Those who respond this way sometimes regard people like you (and me) as hopelessly naive dreamers who are unaware of the fearful power of the tradition to wound, maim and kill (and these things it does, even in North America).

Ali: CS Lewis isn’t everyone’s cup of chai. It helps to have a rather old-fashioned British-style sense of humour, and to be familiar with English middle-class culture in the mid-twentieth century.

As for the Narnia movie—blasphemy! Hollywood RUINED the book. While the Narnia books can be awfully preachy in parts, and Lewis’ ethnocentrism (to say nothing of his sexism) gets pretty annoying, there are aspects of them that I really enjoy. They are humorous, sometimes lightly satirical (as a kid I went to a school very like “Experiment House” for a year… thank god it was only a year…)

Occasionally, he’s profound. Read The Silver Chair, Chapter 12, the scene where the queen of the underworld tries to convince Jill, Eustace and Puddleglum that the world they’re from doesn’t really exist because they can only describe it to her using analogies from the underworld, and tell me what you think.

Ginan Rauf

Well guess that makes me a goofy progressive. And why would I
want to take the Qur’an so seriously when I could be reading
Virginia Woolf’s inimitable English prose?

You’d love CS Lewis’s non-fiction, Ali; ideologically he’s right in your corner. (Except about race, but he’s proof that one can be a plain old racist without also being an imperialist, which is, in a sick way, encouraging.) His fiction is pretty weak. I loved the Narnia books as a kid, but find myself unable to get back into them as an adult.

Coming from Laury I take ‘conservative’ as a compliment, because I like her definition of conservative. If everybody thought like Laury, I would have no problem whatsoever calling myself a conservative-progressive. But I think for the sake of clarity to the people (there! people! that was for you, B)who aren’t familiar with the dialogue that shaped those two terms, I’m going to try and find a less hyphenated way to express the same sentiment.

Muslim Hedonist

“You are nothing if not always provocative. I’d put you right up there with Mike Knight in the Provocateur category.”

Laury, since you have classed me with Mike Knight, maybe I should challenge Louay Safi (of “progressives are motivated by hedonism” fame) to an arm-wrestle.

But I guess the Fiqh Council of North America or some like body would come to his rescue. If handshakes with unrelated women are just barely permissible if not forbidden, how could arm wrestling be allowed???

Sigh.

Why bother with labels? People will call you whatever
they want, often times as an insult, when they don’t agree
with you. The insults range from conservative to hedonist
often times depending on what they see themselves as and
thus whether they feel threatened by you. Sometimes though
people will use it as a compliment and even then, for my
part I often see it as a backhanded insult. Every time someone
attaches a label to me I can think of only one thing,
“Must I now act like the label affixed at the detriment of
clear logical thinking?”

Ginan gets to be a goofy progressive. I want to be goofy. I think this labels thing is not going to work. Did you ever see life of Brian? Brilliant film. I reproduce a relevant section of the film below.

taken from: http://www.mwscomp.com/movies/brian/brian-07.htm

Brian meets the P.F.J. at the forum

[trumpets]
[clap clap clap]
ANNOUNCER:
Ladies and gentlemen. The next contest is between… Frank Goliath, the Macedonian baby-crusher, and Boris Mineburg.
BRIAN:
Want some…
VOICE:
Thank you, fellows.
BRIAN:
Larks’ tongues. Wrens’ livers. Chaffinch brains. Jaguars’ earlobes. Wolf nipple chips. Get ‘em while they’re hot. They’re lovely. Dromedary pretzels, only half a denar. Tuscany fried bats.
JUDITH:
I do feel, Reg, that any Anti-Imperialist group like ours must reflect such a divergence of interests within its power-base.
REG:
Agreed. Francis?
FRANCIS:
Yeah. I think Judith’s point of view is very valid, Reg, provided the Movement never forgets that it is the inalienable right of every man—
STAN:
Or woman.
FRANCIS:
Or woman… to rid himself—
STAN:
Or herself.
FRANCIS:
Or herself.
REG:
Agreed.
FRANCIS:
Thank you, brother.
STAN:
Or sister.
FRANCIS:
Or sister. Where was I?
REG:
I think you’d finished.
FRANCIS:
Oh. Right.
REG:
Furthermore, it is the birthright of every man—
STAN:
Or woman.
REG:
Why don’t you shut up about women, Stan. You’re putting us off.
STAN:
Women have a perfect right to play a part in our movement, Reg.
FRANCIS:
Why are you always on about women, Stan?
STAN:
I want to be one.
REG:
What?
STAN:
I want to be a woman. From now on, I want you all to call me ‘Loretta’.
REG:
What?!
LORETTA:
It’s my right as a man.
JUDITH:
Well, why do you want to be Loretta, Stan?
LORETTA:
I want to have babies.
REG:
You want to have babies?!
LORETTA:
It’s every man’s right to have babies if he wants them.
REG:
But… you can’t have babies.
LORETTA:
Don’t you oppress me.
REG:
I’m not oppressing you, Stan. You haven’t got a womb! Where’s the foetus going to gestate?! You going to keep it in a box?!
LORETTA:
[crying]
JUDITH:
Here! I— I’ve got an idea. Suppose you agree that he can’t actually have babies, not having a womb, which is nobody’s fault, not even the Romans’, but that he can have the right to have babies.
FRANCIS:
Good idea, Judith. We shall fight the oppressors for your right to have babies, brother. Sister. Sorry.
REG:
What’s the point?
FRANCIS:
What?
REG:
What’s the point of fighting for his right to have babies when he can’t have babies?!
FRANCIS:
It is symbolic of our struggle against oppression.
REG:
Symbolic of his struggle against reality.
[trumpets]
[clap clap clap]
GUARD:
Get out there.
BORIS:
It’s, um—
GUARD:
Get out there.
BORIS:
It’s dangerous out there. Ah ah. Ah! Oh.
[clap clap clap]
[clank]
Ooh.
CROWD:
Aaah. Ohh…
SPECTATOR:
What a load of rubbish.
BRIAN:
Larks’ tongues. Otters’ noses. Ocelot spleens.
REG:
Got any nuts?
BRIAN:
I haven’t got any nuts. Sorry. I’ve got wrens’ livers, badgers’ spleens—
REG:
No, no, no.
BRIAN:
Otters’ noses?
REG:
I don’t want any of that Roman rubbish.
JUDITH:
Why don’t you sell proper food?
BRIAN:
Proper food?
REG:
Yeah, not those rich imperialist tit-bits.
BRIAN:
Well, don’t blame me. I didn’t ask to sell this stuff.
REG:
All right. Bag of otters’ noses, then.
FRANCIS:
Make it two.
REG:
Two.
FRANCIS:
Thanks, Reg.
BRIAN:
Are you the Judean People’s Front?
REG:
Fuck off!
BRIAN:
What?
REG:
Judean People’s Front. We’re the People’s Front of Judea! Judean People’s Front. Cawk.
FRANCIS:
Wankers.
BRIAN:
Can I… join your group?
REG:
No. Piss off.
BRIAN:
I didn’t want to sell this stuff. It’s only a job. I hate the Romans as much as anybody.
PEOPLE’S FRONT OF JUDEA:
Shhhh. Shhhh. Shhh. Shh. Shhhh.
REG:
Schtum.
JUDITH:
Are you sure?
BRIAN:
Oh, dead sure. I hate the Romans already.
REG:
Listen. If you really wanted to join the P.F.J., you’d have to really hate the Romans.
BRIAN:
I do!
REG:
Oh, yeah? How much?
BRIAN:
A lot!
REG:
Right. You’re in. Listen. The only people we hate more than the Romans are the fucking Judean People’s Front.
P.F.J.:
Yeah…
JUDITH:
Splitters.
P.F.J.:
Splitters…
FRANCIS:
And the Judean Popular People’s Front.
P.F.J.:
Yeah. Oh, yeah. Splitters. Splitters…
LORETTA:
And the People’s Front of Judea.
P.F.J.:
Yeah. Splitters. Splitters…
REG:
What?
LORETTA:
The People’s Front of Judea. Splitters.
REG:
We’re the People’s Front of Judea!
LORETTA:
Oh. I thought we were the Popular Front.
REG:
People’s Front! C-huh.
FRANCIS:
Whatever happened to the Popular Front, Reg?
REG:
He’s over there.
P.F.J.:
Splitter!
GOLIATH:
[pant pant pant] Ooh. Ooh. I— I think I’m about to have a… cardiac arrest. Ooh. Ooh.
SPECTATOR:
Absolutely dreadful. Hmm.
CROWD:
[cheering]
REG:
Yes, brother! Ha ha. What’s your name?
BRIAN:
Brian. Brian Cohen.
REG:
We may have a little job for you, Brian.

Content deleted for general abundance of bad taste.

>illegal lolitas spermy pussys

?!? it just ASTOUNDS me sometimes … what the hell do they get from pushing crap like that around? Do they think everyone on the internet is a lonely geek with no real life human contact? OMFG, nothing I’ve seen here makes me want to curse so much. Or should I give them the benefit of the doubt and click links to see what they’re REALLY about, ha ha.

—a family man

Sorry HB

You know what the Qur’an says,

...portion of humankind like animals, no farther astray.